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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 4, 2014 15:08:47 GMT -5
The Alameda/Commerce street was also wide at least just east of Tejeda / Herff property at the Alamo street corner and had the cotton wood trees to establish its boundary. If the Sanborn Map be an accurate representation of the original width of the Alameda, it was in the neighborhood of 75 to 80 feet! This was the section between the acequias only. While I have lost track of my source for this ( ), I have actually seen the road beyond to the east labeled as "Road to the Powder House." In a leap of faith, I take this to mean that it was laid out and built by the military in the first decade of the 19th. century at the same time the powder house and watch tower were constructed. This might in some way account for its extra width. In any event, I am at this point convinced that it was NOT the "Gonzales Road" and (as colleague Rick Range suggests) probably did not continue beyond the Powder House and Watch Tower, at least not in any significant form. More about these roads to the east: There were three basic fords on the Salado Creek that would have drawn traffic from town. Paso Hondo was the nearest, almost due east, and this would have been why a "trace" might have continued beyond the Garita. If a formal road did exist in these early years however, it would more likely have been along the path of modern day Paso Hondo Street, two hundred yards north of Commerce St. I agree with Rick Range's conclusion that the main road to Gonzales would have branched off to the right from Alameda Street about 150 yards east of the Acequia Madre de Valero bridge, just short of where I-37 now crosses Commerce, and then crested Powder House Hill in the vicinity of the southern portion of Pittman-Sullivan Park, about 500 yards south of the Garita, with the advantage of crossing a lower part of the ridge. This road would have headed to Paso Toruto (the Salado Creek crossing S.E. of Bexar). This road would have been that blazed by Byrd Lockhart as (according to James Donovan) a "rudimentary road...wide enough for an oxcart." The third route would have been the "Road to the Mill," as labeled by William Grattan on his map of Bexar and environs believed to be drawn in 1835-1836, or shortly thereafter but representing that time. This would have been the Upper Road to Gonzales that crossed Salado Creek at Paso Splashtown (for want of the real name, which I have forgotten). It's location is N.E. of downtown just to the right of I-35 and just beyond the modern water park. This road later became the Seguin Road. At the time of the revolution, it crossed the Guadalupe just east of modern Seguin, Texas, and followed the left bank of the river to Gonzales, passing the DeWitt Sawmill about ten miles short of town. Hence the "Road to the Mill" label by Grattan. It would have been, no doubt, the road by which Bonham returned to the Alamo on March 3, according to Travis' report that he arrived "by coming between the powder house and the enemy's upper encampment..."
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Post by jrboddie on Apr 4, 2014 16:33:42 GMT -5
@rich: in addition to these roads that were probably well known to everyone, Santa Anna discovered a "covered road" within pistol range of the Alamo and posted the Jimenez Battalion there on the afternoon of March 2 according to the Almonte diary.
Hansen 2.2.1
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Post by edward on Apr 4, 2014 16:39:21 GMT -5
Rich, What do you think about this? (SACE 2,112 - Jun 1872). Does this curve seem to match Lungkwitz painting of the Alameda looking east?
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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 4, 2014 23:17:38 GMT -5
@rich: in addition to these roads that were probably well known to everyone, Santa Anna discovered a "covered road" within pistol range of the Alamo and posted the Jimenez Battalion there on the afternoon of March 2 according to the Almonte diary. Hansen 2.2.1Absolutely, Jim. I am guessing it was the Camino Viejo de las Carretas, which seems to have started from the passageway at the north end of the long barrack and continued along the future path of Houston St. off to the east (perhaps over Powder House Hill) or connected to Paso Hondo road (my conjecture). On at least one of the deed plats, it is shown to be parallel to Alameda and 1,100 feet to the north. Another possibility (perhaps better, since it wasn't perpendicular to the Alamo) would have been the road that began at the Plaza de Valero where Crockett St. is now and bent around to the N.E. and joined the "Road to the Mill" after crossing the second acequia. While I have presented most of these on my model as very street-like and lacking detail, they would have had a variety of appearances, I'm a-thinkin', from sort of graded to a practically obscure cart path -- in this case sunken in a depression within the labor arriba.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 4, 2014 23:41:10 GMT -5
Rich, What do you think about this? (SACE 2,112 - Jun 1872). Does this curve seem to match Lungkwitz painting of the Alameda looking east?
View Attachment This is the Giraud plat of the whole region (and goes way below Concepcion). I don't believe we can depend on every sway and swerve in the dotted lines (in this case), since Giraud (and maybe Gentilz) was presenting a greater picture than specific road and lot surveys. What I do believe remains firm in this version is that the Gonzales Road does what I said above by branching off to the southeast south of the Powder House and (on the full map) it does indeed cross the Salado at Paso Toruto. The split in the bottom right corner of the portion you show would be where the left fork crosses Paso Toruto (just south of Rigsby Ave.) and continues to Gonzales and the right fork crosses about slightly more than 1/2 mile below near the Roland Ave. crossing and continued to the sulphur springs on the Cibolo Creek and then on to Victoria. The dotted line to the powder house is nerve-racking in that it does just go there on the Giraud map, but continues past it a slight bit without committing. lol. Just what is old Francois trying to show???
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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 5, 2014 0:05:58 GMT -5
My depiction of the Alameda, the Road to the Powder House and the Gonzales-Victoria Road to its right, branching off the crossover road from the Alameda to the Goliad Road (off the picture to the right). My basic concept was drawn primarily from the alleged "Confederate" Map (below) that the G.L.O. dates as 1846 with (of course) additions drawn upon it at later dates. These paths are pretty accurately corroborated by the Giraud plat.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 5, 2014 0:36:04 GMT -5
I just tried to add another plat and got an error message saying "This forum has exceeded its attachment space limits. Your file cannot be uploaded." !!! Guys, does this mean........ it's over?!
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Post by estebans on Apr 16, 2014 1:41:08 GMT -5
While we are in that vicinity, was there a place south of San Antonio called Rancho San Pedro, say along San Pedro Creek? I have run into a single reference to such a site, but have not been able to find it mapped yet. There was one near present-day Brownsville, but I think that was too far away to be involved in the action I am investigating.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 16, 2014 11:58:18 GMT -5
While we are in that vicinity, was there a place south of San Antonio called Rancho San Pedro, say along San Pedro Creek? I have run into a single reference to such a site, but have not been able to find it mapped yet. There was one near present-day Brownsville, but I think that was too far away to be involved in the action I am investigating. Well, and San Pedro Creek (at least San Antonio's) dumped into the San Antonio River right across from Mission Concepcion, so if that were the connection to the name, the ranch would have to be within 2 miles of Bexar. Not to say it couldn't have been, I just don't recall hearing of it.
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Post by estebans on Apr 16, 2014 23:07:03 GMT -5
While we are in that vicinity, was there a place south of San Antonio called Rancho San Pedro, say along San Pedro Creek? I have run into a single reference to such a site, but have not been able to find it mapped yet. There was one near present-day Brownsville, but I think that was too far away to be involved in the action I am investigating. Well, and San Pedro Creek (at least San Antonio's) dumped into the San Antonio River right across from Mission Concepcion, so if that were the connection to the name, the ranch would have to be within 2 miles of Bexar. Not to say it couldn't have been, I just don't recall hearing of it. Thanks for looking, Rich--I took another look at the whole matter and think I can find the place eventually. It seems to be an extreme instance of the " Rashomon effect," where the two accounts of an event vary so much that I had thought they must be two different events, but now I believe they both refer to the same incident. Thirty-odd miles south of San Antonio, rather than along San Pedro Creek.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 18, 2014 16:57:07 GMT -5
I just did a quick check of Jack Jackson's two maps in Los Tejanos, created with the assistance of Robert Thonhoff. One is showing all the ranchos along the San Antonio River and Cibolo Creek between Bexar and La Bahia. The other does the same for all between the Nueces and Rio Grande in South Texas. I can find no San Pedro Ranch listed. Perhaps it was of a later birth than colonial Spanish Texas. I have found that Jack's Bexar map is misleading with property names in some cases, having been assembled, as he says, from the memoirs of Antonio Menchaca. Deed records would certainly trump this approach.
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Post by edward on Jun 6, 2014 1:27:35 GMT -5
I combine Rullmann's maps into one to follow his story on the siege of Bexar that he noted on his map.
Short Historical Fact of the Revolution of Texas. After defeating the Mexicans at Gonzales on 2nd October 1835 and taking of Gonzales on the 9th Oct. the Texans marched towards San Antonio and established camp No. 1 near Mission Espada. (This camp and march into San Antonio is shown on this map in red dotted lines.) Camp No. 2 was established among the large trees on the land now known as Riverside Park. It was here where Ben Milam called for volunteers to go with him into San Antonio. On the night of Dec 4th 300 volunteers headed by Ben Milam left camp no. 2, crossed the San Antonio River at the Concepcion Road and marched through the land west of the city going north, passing north of San Pedro Spring and marched to Molino Blanco (white mill) and established Camp No. 3. The next morning they entered the city through Soledad and Acequia streets, stormed and captured the Garza and Veramendi buildings and established camp No. 4. They then stormed house after house and on the night of Dec 8 were in possession of all buildings on the north side and within 20 yards of Fort San Antonio. On the 9th day of Dec 1835 the white flag was raised at the fort and the 1400 Mexicans surrendered to the 300 Texan volunteers.
John D. Rullmann 1912 Ex-City Engineer & Surveyor Residing in San Antonio since 1866
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 6, 2014 11:29:31 GMT -5
Nice imaging and combining on the Rullman maps, Edward. I have read Rullman's notes on the map. He was to be commended for his long efforts -- since the mid-nineteenth century -- to bring this exhaustively accurate historical map to us.
Interestingly, while I trust his placement of the route of Austin's army from Espada to Molino Blanco, he is obviously in great error saying that Milam moved the men from Riverside Park to the mill on the night of December 4. Austin's camp was at the mill for weeks before the battle of Bexar. Milam made his alleged battle cry at that location, not below Mission Concepcion. There are many documents that make this very clear.
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Post by edward on Jun 6, 2014 12:42:01 GMT -5
Nice imaging and combining on the Rullman maps, Edward. I have read Rullman's notes on the map. He was to be commended for his long efforts -- since the mid-nineteenth century -- to bring this exhaustively accurate historical map to us. Interestingly, while I trust his placement of the route of Austin's army from Espada to Molino Blanco, he is obviously in great error saying that Milam moved the men from Riverside Park to the mill on the night of December 4. Austin's camp was at the mill for weeks before the battle of Bexar. Milam made his alleged battle cry at that location, not below Mission Concepcion. There are many documents that make this very clear. I agree Rich. I just never noticed the 'Trail' before. I was looking at Nelson's book and on the upper left corner there is this faint 'Trail' line for the partial view of this map. So I said WTH is that. Then I looked at the full size maps to see what was going on and thought it would interesting in seeing the whole 'Trail' with the distance involved by splicing the two sections together. Also, Camposanto is shown as it was after 1847 not as it was in 1837.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 6, 2014 15:03:38 GMT -5
Yes, I went through the same process with the Rullman. I felt suddenly enlightened, not ever having thought about HOW Austin got part of his army up to the mill. I guess I always assumed he went around the back of Powder House Hill and came down the valley, crossing the river at some point upstream from the mill site. This makes total sense, and, since Rullman dealt with maps and deeds and not primary accounts, it is easy to understand how he messed up the Milam details. Rullman's Campo Santo was all that I understood until you enlightened me with the true dimensions and location from the deed records. Actually, LaBastida was more accurate in this case than Rullman, who was using the boundaries of the post independence Anglo AND Tejano cemeteries combined. If you noticed, one of my images from my model illustrating the "Indian River Walk Motel" had, in the deep background, my original outline following Rullman's. Interestingly, after looking at that for months, I actually decided on a smaller segment which I plotted out inside the larger one as the N.E. quadrant. This of course was still much larger than the real Campo Santo, but at least I could imagine Francisco Ruiz genuinely having a problem burying all the dead soldados in it, along side all the graves since 1808. Then, when I actually measured it and saw how very large even that was, I once again doubted. So.... Thanks again for removing all doubt. lol. (Pile of sculls, not rocks -- it's just not easy to find a pile of sculls on the model site.) I have also rethought my conjectural curved road to the gate. Originally, I was assuming open ground and shortest distance from town. Now, with the possibility of the uncharted Laredito acequia having come from north to south between the Campo Santo and the creek, following previous roads or streets would be necessary due to the need of a bridge. Of course, if the acequia were as rudimentary (and narrow) as I'm guessing, then that might not be a problem.
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