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Post by estebans on Dec 31, 2012 8:34:04 GMT -5
Google Images only coughed up a single Old Ironsides snuffbox for me, albeit allegedly from the 1840s, and it doesn't seem like the kind of thing a male politician would have given another publicly. Not directly comparable, but interesting to see another; there's a third photo that shows the bottom, if you click on the missing image: www.nyhistory.org/node/12158
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jan 2, 2013 0:18:36 GMT -5
Google Images only coughed up a single Old Ironsides snuffbox for me, albeit allegedly from the 1840s, and it doesn't seem like the kind of thing a male politician would have given another publicly. Not directly comparable, but interesting to see another; there's a third photo that shows the bottom, if you click on the missing image: www.nyhistory.org/node/12158Interesting picture. There seems to have been a long tradition of making various souvenirs from U.S.S Constituion wood. President Andrew Jackson was given a horse carriage.
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Post by estebans on Jan 2, 2013 6:12:50 GMT -5
Interesting picture? Which one? As I took some trouble to point out, there are three pictures at that page: top, interior and bottom views. Two of them are not interesting? Since we're on a fresh page, here is the link for the New York snuffbox again: www.nyhistory.org/node/12158And as good luck would have it, there are actually top & interior views of the Collins snuffbox available at the link below, albeit low-resolution ones. The gold inlays in the top mention Old Ironsides and the year; the gold medallion inlaid in the interior is the presentation to Sam Houston: assets.texasmonthly.com/images/01_12/collins.pdfI believe the current issue in this thread was something about the relative splendor and elegance of snuffboxes made from Constitution wood, not Andrew Jackson's carriages, so feel free to get back on point, now that I've made it convenient for everyone to do some comparing for themselves. Is there anyone out there with the Collins book besides me who can count the number of different fonts used on the inlaid medallion in that box, versus the New York box's cover inscription? I believe that was one measure of quality, if harmoniously executed. Stephen Schneider
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 2, 2013 18:14:03 GMT -5
Am I misremembering, or wasn't there a Sam Houston snuffbox on exhibit for many years in the Alamo Gift Shop Museum?
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Post by estebans on Jan 3, 2013 0:11:44 GMT -5
I knew this could happen with such a small comparison sample, but it's still an intriguing development: My brother the former cabinetmaker opines that the New York box, especially its bottom, looks much more like maple to him, not oak. Does this mean it's fake? Not necessarily, IMO: as Paul pointed out, wooden sailing ships on active service were shedding wood every time they went in the dockyard: spars, railings, etc. They could sell off the captain's old dining table as authentic Old Ironsides wood with a straight face, if they wanted to. Perhaps the famous external hull timbers were turned into souvenirs that cost more, like carriages.
I can't easily show my brother the Collins box well enough for his opinion on the type of wood there, but frankly I think it's wrong to assume that it hasn't already been verified as old-growth oak by someone who would know. The real problem with the wood is that I don't believe there is any way to confirm how "real" it is except a precise grain match to a known Constitution sample, which could be bewilderingly hard to achieve due to the factor mentioned above: frequent to constant replacement of wood on active wooden sailing ships. Despite how many amazing ways the scientists have of authenticating things these days, there are some surprising things they can't do much with.
But that was one thing that had already occurred to me: Could either or both boxes be an "authentic fake," actually made in the 1830s or 1840s, but not out of the famous oak the buyers thought they were getting? That is one of the possibilities you must consider if you're going to discuss the authenticity of the Collins box.
Anybody doing a newspaper search on Constitution knicknacks? I have a newspaperarchive.com account and can look into it tomorrow. That is one aspect of this Collins snuffbox that fascinates me: it speaks to Houston's sense of deliberate national mythmaking, not the part about himself that some contemporaries found so objectionable, but the part about starting the mythology of the Republic of Texas right away: things like the hall of portraits of heroes of the revolution. Of course newspapers and other politicians were churning away at it too, but I'm struck by how much conscious modeling on the U. S. revolution there was, no matter how hard reality had to be stretched to fit the tropes. As I learn more about the precarious existence of the RoT, I can see how holding hard to fresh myths was one of the things that helped them keep going.
Rich, it certainly seems like the Alamo box might have been the Collins box, if a previous owner of the latter was DRT. There's an interesting point there about people's assumptions about provenance, but I'll leave that for another day.
Stephen Schneider
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jan 3, 2013 0:24:05 GMT -5
Interesting picture? Which one? As I took some trouble to point out, there are three pictures at that page: top, interior and bottom views. Two of them are not interesting? All. I don't see any gold inlay, just metal labels. You are correct on your belief, which is my opinion. My reference to Andrew Jackson's carriage was relevant because he was a politician, his carriage was made from U.S.S. Constitution wood. It was also constructed around the same time the alleged Houston snuff box was first presented, unlike your heart example. The carriage was made by Knowles and Thayer of Amhurst, Mass, who made conveyances and other items for various politicans. They could have easily carved the 1830s snuff boxes or possibly be connected to the company that did such woodwork. I also thought you knew that the supposed original owner of the Houston snuff box was President Jackson, which makes me very much on point. Any authenticator and many collectors will advise you to be cautious with labels and tags, especially on historical items. They can be easily created, moved and manipulated. There are a lot of intelligent people looking to deceive you with valuable and less than valuable collectables. Later.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jan 3, 2013 19:24:09 GMT -5
I knew this could happen with such a small comparison sample, but it's still an intriguing development: My brother the former cabinetmaker opines that the New York box, especially its bottom, looks much more like maple to him, not oak. Does this mean it's fake? Not necessarily, IMO: as Paul pointed out, wooden sailing ships on active service were shedding wood every time they went in the dockyard: spars, railings, etc. They could sell off the captain's old dining table as authentic Old Ironsides wood with a straight face, if they wanted to. Perhaps the famous external hull timbers were turned into souvenirs that cost more, like carriages. I can't easily show my brother the Collins box well enough for his opinion on the type of wood there, but frankly I think it's wrong to assume that it hasn't already been verified as old-growth oak by someone who would know. The real problem with the wood is that I don't believe there is any way to confirm how "real" it is except a precise grain match to a known Constitution sample, which could be bewilderingly hard to achieve due to the factor mentioned above: frequent to constant replacement of wood on active wooden sailing ships. Despite how many amazing ways the scientists have of authenticating things these days, there are some surprising things they can't do much with. But that was one thing that had already occurred to me: Could either or both boxes be an "authentic fake," actually made in the 1830s or 1840s, but not out of the famous oak the buyers thought they were getting? That is one of the possibilities you must consider if you're going to discuss the authenticity of the Collins box. Maple, well some may consider that another inconsistency. I never specicfically stated that the Houston snuff box was a fake of any kind based on anyone's photo perception of the wood and would not do so. I do not know exactly when, where and who made the item to come to such a definite determination. My whole initial point was that the contemporary description of the Houston snuff box seems a little at odds with the one displayed today apparently without the beautiful gold inlay. I never commented on the age of the pre-U.S.S. Constitution material or thought a precise wood grain match between the Houston snuff box and Old Ironsides by scientists was required to prove it belonged to the Texas president. Your tests might go too far and don't solely prove ownership of the item. I believe I said: "wood experts could determine if the material was consistent to the live oak and pine used to construct the ship." I would be very suspicious if the box were made of plywood or any material inconsistent with 18th and 19th Century shipbuilding. Well said. You should read some of my posts on Sam Houston's history, myths and fiction turned into facts. I don't doubt it either. I think the DRT has displayed a few alleged Alamo and Texas Revolutionary relics that appeared out of the mists of time. These items are usually discovered before a battle anniversary or around the debut of a new Alamo movie. Throw a tag and a tale on a Potawatomie Indian vest and all of a sudden it becomes Davy Crockett's smoking jacket.
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