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Post by Jim Boylston on Apr 13, 2011 11:24:12 GMT -5
This account is mainly a rehash, but I found the added editorial comments humorous. The title says it all, "Particulars of the Late Bloody Affair Between a Party of White Savages on the Mississippi." From the Essex Register (Massachusetts), November 1, 1827. Attachments:
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Post by Jim Boylston on Apr 13, 2011 11:34:14 GMT -5
The story continues (and grows a little). This is an eyewitness account of the Sand Bar fight printed in the Village Register, November 8, 1827, but (apparently) originally published in the Louisiana Argus on October 2, 1827. Note that Bowie's knife is now described as a "large butcher knife." Jim Attachments:
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Post by Jim Boylston on Apr 13, 2011 11:42:44 GMT -5
Robert Crain, a participant, provided his account of the Sand Bar affair in this December 12, 1827 edition of the National Intelligencer. Jim Attachments:
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Post by Jim Boylston on Apr 13, 2011 11:57:33 GMT -5
Just curious, what's the earliest usage of the term "Bowie knife?" I found an advertisement in the National Intelligencer, Dec. 31, 1830 that offers: "Very cheap lock spring Bowie knives of superior quality and finish at $5 each." I'm interested in any earlier mentions. Jim
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Post by Hiram on Apr 13, 2011 15:18:50 GMT -5
Hi Were large 'hunting' type knives so rare in 1830's America that you had to make or commission your own? cheers Simon Simon,
My short answer would be no. Crude knives were frequently made by blacksmiths. Typically, they would hammer out a file (already made of forged steel) and then fashion it into a knife. The knife given to Caiaphas Ham by R.P. Bowie was made in this manner. If one had the desire and the necessary funds, you could commission a knife to be made by a cutler. Often these were "presentation" pieces given as gifts or mementos (e.g. the Searles' Bowie knife.)
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Post by Hiram on Apr 13, 2011 16:22:47 GMT -5
Just curious, what's the earliest usage of the term "Bowie knife?" I found an advertisement in the National Intelligencer, Dec. 31, 1830 that offers: "Very cheap lock spring Bowie knives of superior quality and finish at $5 each." I'm interested in any earlier mentions. Jim Jim,
That's a very early date in terms of using the phrase "Bowie knife." IIRC, James Black designed "Bowie #1" in the same month of the same year. The Schively "Bowie" precedes the Black model by two years, but Henry Schively, who had a shop on Chestnut Street, was the preeminent maker of surgical instruments in Philadelphia and would have advertised as such, not as a maker of Bowie knives. He designed everything from cased sets of capital instruments to bistouries, lancets and scalpels.
The lock spring Bowie knife mentioned in the National Intelligencer recalls a knife designed by Frenchman Charles Hector, who was a veteran of the American Revolution and was later executed during the Reign of Terror. If you do a image search on "couteau à la d'estaing" or "laguiole couteaux" you will see some examples of large folding knives which could easily be called "lock spring Bowie knives." I suspect that the knives being advertised in the Intelligencer were being imported from France. When I read "very cheap of superior quality" I read "import."
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 13, 2011 17:15:44 GMT -5
Well, since we are on Bowie Knives, here is the complete reference to that 1846 newspaper article: I didn't mean to sidebar the topic with the Sand Bar Knife and later Bowie variations. I was merely ruminating that we have almost no contemporary description of Jim Bowie's big knife at Natchez in 1827 and little information on the blade Bowie possibly used in his last moments at the Alamo. I think this is relevant as to whether Bowie went down fighting on his cot or not. I don't know if James Madison Wells' 1889 description of Bowie's Sand Bar/Alamo Knife is well-known, but it is detailed and like other accounts it gives the Sand Bar Knife a Louisiana origin, which is where the Bowies were living before the Natchez fight. I did enjoy your 1846 Pensylvania newspaper story on the Bowie Knife, especially that haunting and poetic last line. "The hand that formed the dreadful knife could no longer wield it" Wow!
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Post by Kevin Young on Apr 13, 2011 18:08:19 GMT -5
I think the discussion does fit the topic thread...so keep it coming. When I get back to the house, I will find and post those 1860 articles on the Sandbar. Actually, the thing that kind of stands out in that 1846 article is the reference to having examined Mexican skulls brought in from San Jacinto. Already talking to Jeff Dunn about that (who did a great study of the six soldado San Jacinto skulls that ended up in Philly.
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Post by Hiram on Apr 13, 2011 18:16:15 GMT -5
RangerRod,
Can you post a link or post the description given by James Madison Wells? Being the younger brother of Samuel Levi Wells III, one of principals in the Sand Bar Fight, his description would be noteworthy.
Yet another sidebar - It has been brought to my attention that some people have stated that the half-brother of Samuel Wells III, William Rudolph Wells perished as an Alamo defender. This is incorrect.
There was an Alamo defender named William Wells, Georgian-born in 1798. William R. Wells was born Louisiana-born prior to the year 1795. They are not the one and the same person.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 13, 2011 19:19:35 GMT -5
Thanks Kevin, but maybe a Bowie Knife Thread would be more appropriate if we're going to delve into the nitty-gritty of primary and contemporary details on the Sand Bar Fight and descriptions of the knife Jim Bowie wielded there.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Apr 13, 2011 20:21:16 GMT -5
About half this thread is about the Sand Bar fight. Since it's about Bowie it's still relatively "on topic," so I'm going to suggest the conversation continue here. Moving a lot of individual posts is time consuming and we might lose some people who are following the discussion here.
And, of course, at the Sand Bar there's no question that Bowie "went down fighting."
Jim
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Apr 13, 2011 20:51:53 GMT -5
About half this thread is about the Sand Bar fight. Since it's about Bowie it's still relatively "on topic," so I'm going to suggest the conversation continue here. Moving a lot of individual posts is time consuming and we might lose some people who are following the discussion here. And, of course, at the Sand Bar there's no question that Bowie "went down fighting." Jim I agree -- the discussions have been relative, topic wise, and I haven't found myself lost or confused along the way. Paul
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 13, 2011 21:39:22 GMT -5
Oops! Too late. I just created the Bowie Knife thread and typed out a long excerpt from the article that I've been referencing for a few days. Sorry.
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Apr 14, 2011 20:16:27 GMT -5
There are only so many accounts to discuss regarding Bowie's death, although, as with many topics in the Forum, I've been surprised at how many interesting aspects (such as the exact state of Bowie's health) I'd never considered can be discussed. Having carved numerous wooden copies of what I thought were Bowie knives as a child, the developments in this thread have certainly retained my interest.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 15, 2011 13:43:56 GMT -5
I wonder if Bowie's illness would have killed him the long run. Maybe the Mexican soldiers did him a favor. Still not sure what ailed him.
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