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Post by mjbrathwaite on Apr 15, 2011 18:46:55 GMT -5
Maybe they did, but I'm still intrigued by Allen and Stuart's suggestions that Bowie may have been starting to recover by then.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 15, 2011 22:03:03 GMT -5
It's really me repeating Stuart's assessment. There are reports from survivors about Bowie being ill, but no mention of his being near death or dead prior to the battle. I don't count Madame Candelaria due to the many contradictions in her various stories.
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Post by Kevin Young on Apr 17, 2011 11:52:21 GMT -5
Then again, how certain are we in regards to the idenity of what was medically wrong with Bowie to start with?
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Post by Kevin Young on Apr 17, 2011 11:54:14 GMT -5
From the Lehigh Register Allentown PA, Wed. May 2, 1860, pg 3, column 1
The Greatest Duel on Record-An old Mississippian furnishes the following to the Woodville [Miss.] Republican. The famous duel, in which forty or more gentlemen were engaged, in 1828, is still remembered in Natchez. Colo. Jim Bowie,the famous fighter and inventor of the knife, which bears his name, used to spend a great deal of his time in Natchez. He was challenged by a gentleman of Alexandria, La, whose friends to the number of twenty or more, accompanied him to Natchez to see fair play, knowing Bowie was a desperate man, and had his own friends abut him. All parties went upon the field. The combatants took their places in the center, separated from their friends in the rear or enough no to endanger them with their balls. Behind the battle array thus: Twenty armed Louisianians, fifty yards behind their champion and his seconds and surgeon, and opposite them, as far behind Bowie and his second and surgeon, twenty armed Mississippians. Behold the heights f Natchez thronged with spectators, and a steamer in the river rounded too, its decks black with passengers, watching with a deep interest the scene. The plan of fight was to exchange shots twice with pistols, and to close with the knives, Bowie being armd with his own terrible weapon. At the first fire, both parties escaped. At the second, the Louisianian was too quick, and took advantage of Bowie, who waited the word. At this Bowie’s second cried, “Foul play!” and shot the Louisianian dead. The second of the lattor [sic] instantly killed the slayer of his principal. Bowie drove his knife into this man. The surgeons crossed blades, while, with loud cries, came on the two partie of friends, the light of battle in their eyes In a moment, the whole number were engaged in a fearful conflict. Dirks, pistols and knives were used with fatal effect, until one party drove the other from the field. I do not know how many were killed and wounded in all, but it was a dreadful slaughter. Bowie fought like a lion, but fell covered with wounds. For months he lingered at the Mansion House before he fully recovered.
The interest is still there in 1860, although the particulars start getting "confused." This was picked up by a variety of papers at the time.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 24, 2011 21:48:24 GMT -5
From the Lehigh Register Allentown PA, Wed. May 2, 1860, pg 3, column 1 The Greatest Duel on Record-An old Mississippian furnishes the following to the Woodville [Miss.] Republican. The famous duel, in which forty or more gentlemen were engaged, in 1828, is still remembered in Natchez. Colo. Jim Bowie,the famous fighter and inventor of the knife, which bears his name, used to spend a great deal of his time in Natchez. He was challenged by a gentleman of Alexandria, La, whose friends to the number of twenty or more, accompanied him to Natchez to see fair play, knowing Bowie was a desperate man, and had his own friends abut him. All parties went upon the field. The combatants took their places in the center, separated from their friends in the rear or enough no to endanger them with their balls. Behind the battle array thus: Twenty armed Louisianians, fifty yards behind their champion and his seconds and surgeon, and opposite them, as far behind Bowie and his second and surgeon, twenty armed Mississippians. Behold the heights f Natchez thronged with spectators, and a steamer in the river rounded too, its decks black with passengers, watching with a deep interest the scene. The plan of fight was to exchange shots twice with pistols, and to close with the knives, Bowie being armd with his own terrible weapon. At the first fire, both parties escaped. At the second, the Louisianian was too quick, and took advantage of Bowie, who waited the word. At this Bowie’s second cried, “Foul play!” and shot the Louisianian dead. The second of the lattor [sic] instantly killed the slayer of his principal. Bowie drove his knife into this man. The surgeons crossed blades, while, with loud cries, came on the two partie of friends, the light of battle in their eyes In a moment, the whole number were engaged in a fearful conflict. Dirks, pistols and knives were used with fatal effect, until one party drove the other from the field. I do not know how many were killed and wounded in all, but it was a dreadful slaughter. Bowie fought like a lion, but fell covered with wounds. For months he lingered at the Mansion House before he fully recovered. The interest is still there in 1860, although the particulars start getting "confused." This was picked up by a variety of papers at the time. That was certainly an exaggerated account, but interesting. Perhaps they kept the fight alive because they believed the Bowie Knife was created there. I believe Dobie placed one of the early Bowie origin stories in Natchez. Of course most of the origin stories (at least nine) come from Southern Louisiana, which seems like the most likely location for the knife's creation. This overblown tale was a real free-for-all with twenty pistol and knife-wielding combatants.
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Post by Kevin Young on Apr 25, 2011 10:45:02 GMT -5
Or it is relecting the times-less than a year before the big blowout with the Lincoln election, Southern Secession, and the start of the CW. So, even though the article is from a Southern newspaper it plays well about in PA about large groups of armed Southerners fighting it out...
And yes, a very imagitive article. There is another one about Bowie returning from the Rocky Mountains and getting into a fight that is just as strange...
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 25, 2011 19:27:40 GMT -5
I didn't think of a secession connection, but that makes more sense. Those southerners can get rowdy.
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Post by Kevin Young on Apr 25, 2011 20:14:21 GMT -5
Somewhere I have notes started as a project called "The Alamo as a Secessionist Symbol."
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Post by bowie on Nov 30, 2011 16:05:12 GMT -5
"The accounts of him 'hiding' beneath covers or in the bed" came from a Mexican soldier who did'nt even know what Jim Bowie looked like. I would'nt trust that as far as I could toss a 2 ton Banana. There is still the nine year old boy watching Disney's "Davy Crockett" part of me that likes to think Bowie died in grand style taking 10 or 12 Mexican soldiers with him. However, I believe that he was so far gone or already dead that he never knew what hit him. The accounts of him 'hiding' beneath covers or in the bed make me feel he didn't go down shooting and stabbing. Just remember, however, his character was such that he would have if he could have. Always remember in the discussions about how and why so-and-so died that the point really is, 200 or more men went into the final battle and they all perished.
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Post by bowie on Dec 26, 2011 15:37:16 GMT -5
To the contrary. There is no credible evidence that James Bowie was probably dead. All the evidence really does'nt go any further then that He had a "peculiar sickness". If it was typhoid, and he made it two weeks, he may have even been slightly recovering at the time. I've read Typhoid at the time killed about 50% of the inflicted, and we don't know for sure if that's what he had. We know he had to be very sick if he was in a cot, but that's really all we know. If there is more than that known, please let me know. Mjbrathwaite, Remember Bowie was so sick he had to be confined to his bed. He probably had chills and fever and maybe a really hard time breathing. Chances are he was dead when the mexicans entered his room or was too weak to put up much of a fight. I would like to believe he fought to his last breath, but the man was really sick.
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johnk
Full Member
Posts: 67
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Post by johnk on Jan 24, 2012 7:54:24 GMT -5
Marty, I have always felt that the Mexican accounts of him 'hiding' beneath the covers made me feel like he was either dead with the covers pulled over his face by one of the defenders after he died or he was so sick with chills and fever he was out of his mind. No doubt if he had been able he would have fought. After reading many accounts of Bowie this seems to me to be the most likely.......He was not in the Hospital he couldnt move and a sheet was placed over his body and face The shivering due to illness was interpreted as cowardice by Mexicans .The fact he was not in hospital gave rise to cowardice myth as they thought he was hiding in room. Mexicans in battle frenzy broke in, saw small movement under sheets and killed him.......Bowie was a brave man....I dont think he killed any Mexicans with knife or guns as the legend states.
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johnk
Full Member
Posts: 67
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Post by johnk on Jan 24, 2012 15:26:02 GMT -5
In my opinion the cowardice report was due to the fact he was in a room and not in the hospital ...he had a sheet covering him ...he was to weak to move.....Mexican soldiers burst in ..saw a slight movement under the sheet and killed him.........Such was their blood lust that there was not enough live bodies to satisfy them and bayoneted dead bodies many times.....Which is why I cant believe that an adult man like Davy Crockett was spared when a lot of young unarmed men were killed......It seems the power of mass blood lust in the story is underestimated.
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Post by silverwolf on Sept 10, 2013 3:04:02 GMT -5
I think it was in Lin K Tinkles Accounts that Bowie according to Dr Smith??? and Bowies Slave Sam, that two pistol balls went thru Bowies head while he was unable to lift them from the pillow and basically you could still see Bowies brains splattered against the wall even a year later.
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Post by Herb on Sept 10, 2013 10:41:21 GMT -5
The major problem, with this account is the Sutherland sketch, where he places Bowie's death in the southern Castanda house along the West Wall (where Bowie was living when Sutherland left the Alamo). Upon falling ill he was moved and died according to most accounts in the Low Barracks near the main gate (see Alsbury, Ruiz and Sanchez-Navarro). It seems probable that the stained wall was left by the defender that attempted to protect Alsbury and her sister.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Sept 16, 2013 13:04:14 GMT -5
The major problem, with this account is the Sutherland sketch, where he places Bowie's death in the southern Castanda house along the West Wall (where Bowie was living when Sutherland left the Alamo). Upon falling ill he was moved and died according to most accounts in the Low Barracks near the main gate (see Alsbury, Ruiz and Sanchez-Navarro). It seems probable that the stained wall was left by the defender that attempted to protect Alsbury and her sister. I totally agree. Dr. Sutherland seems never to have heard (from Juana Alsbury or anybody else) that Bowie had been moved to the low barrack during the siege. Thus, since the Francisco Castaneda house is where Bowie and his family were when Sutherland left on the 23rd., he assumed he died there. Silverwolf, it is interesting to hear you refer to "Lin K. Tinkle accounts." Is it safe to assume you mean Lon Tinkle and his 1958 book 13 Days to Glory? Lindsey K. Tinkle was author-historian Lon Tinkle's g-g-g-great grandfather, who left Tennessee with Davy Crockett but did not continue on to the Alamo. I know of no Lin K. Tinkle account -- and would LOVE to.
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