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Post by Rich Curilla on Nov 9, 2015 21:36:56 GMT -5
Brace of pistols in hand and slashing blade is the way Bowie should have died. At least that's the way most historians and film directors had him expire in the past. I've been interested in some recent opinions that Bowie was not as deathly ill as assumed by witnesses. One opinion is that his Malarial type of illness generally had a two week run where you either died or recovered. If he was on the path to recovery he may have been lucid enough to "give 'em what fer" before falling. That could possibly account for the mutilation reported by several witnesses who claimed his body was lifted on bayonets. But I have neither the interest or scholarly drive of some of the dedicated members of this Forum, so my opinion is just my tendency to prefer dramatized historical events. Lou From Long Island That's the way I used to be back in the earlier years, but now-a-days I think more along the lines of reality NEVER being what you expect it to be.
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Nov 11, 2015 1:39:12 GMT -5
I'd still love to read Stuart's article on the possible state of Bowie's health at the time of the battle if anyone knows how it can be accessed. Obviously we're never going to be any more certain about it than we can be about Crockett's death, but I still find it fascinating going over the various accounts. I've just reread this thread and found the reference to Crockett's ghost being at the Alamo at night. Unfortunately, he wasn't there the night I walked around the outside of it! I was passing through San Antonio in the middle of the night while on a singing tour of America in 1988, and the Greyhound bus driver made an unscheduled trip to the Alamo so I could see it. I've never managed to get there in the daytime, although I would love to.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Nov 12, 2015 21:56:05 GMT -5
I find the Alamo most interesting at night. There's something about seeing it with subdued lighting and evening shadows. I always imagine what it must have been like to be inside the Alamo's walls, with only the light of a few fires to illuminate the grounds. What did those men (and the women and children, as well) think about, being surrounded by an overwhelming force, knowing the eventual fate they faced ... If those grounds could talk, I would love to know what those men shared in the shadows of those evening fires.
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Post by Bill Yowell on Nov 13, 2015 10:41:08 GMT -5
I would think that the first ten days there was hope and eager anticipation for the expected reinforcements to arrive. Watching the ever changing movements of the Mexican army, the batteries moving closer and closer, the arrival of large enemy reinforcement, and then seeing the construction of the ladders that would be used for the final assault, must have brought on the epitome of hopelessness. Can you imagine what the 32 men from Gonzales must of felt when they entered the gates only to learn the Fannin and his forces were not there? Another question, do you think that sending James Allen out when the end was so obvious was really a last ditch plea for reinforcements, or was it Travis' compassionate effort to give the youngest combatant in the garrison at least a chance to live a longer life? I choose the latter.
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Post by daverothe on Nov 13, 2015 22:02:01 GMT -5
Bill, I can totally relate to what you wrote. To be surrounded and see day after day, the Mexicans building ladders and moving closer and closer with no help on the way....that must have been brutal. Even the strongest willed people must have been totally deflated. As for Martin, I would like to think, as you did, that Travis sent him away not only because he was a good rider, but because he was the youngest and might have a shot at a life.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Nov 13, 2015 23:53:14 GMT -5
I would think that the first ten days there was hope and eager anticipation for the expected reinforcements to arrive. I tend to expand this period to the first twelve days. Remember, they probably never found out that Fannin wasn't coming. Bonham certainly didn't know that when he arrived on the 3rd. at 11:00 A.M. since he was on the road between Gonzales and BĂ©xar when Fannin's courier with the information was on the road from Goliad to Gonzales. Plus the letter from Robert M. Williamson that Bonham delivered to Travis was glowing with encouragement and said that Fannin WAS coming -- and also that 360 more men were on the way, 32 of whom had already arrived. March 3rd. was clearly not "one of the most pathetic days in time," as Sidney Lanier called it. Rather than being a day of "no hope," it was a day of "new hope." Reinforcements ARE coming. Texas HASN'T forgotten us. Any minute now they will start arriving. Then, over the next two days, the morale began to sag again since nobody was showing up, as they well should have been by then. But "hope springs eternal." I would imagine that they expected an assault to come in the morning every night when they turned in and that there was little more reason to expect it when they finally went to bed on the night of March 5th. Each night was a bit worse than the one before, but I doubt if they went to bed Saturday night saying, "It's gonna come in the morning." On the other hand, I'll bet each one of them looked at the eastern horizon before they went to bed and thought, "Maybe our boys will come tomorrow." Hope springs eternal.
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Post by daverothe on Nov 14, 2015 1:43:33 GMT -5
Hope does spring eternal. I also believe that there is something to the fire that exists when people, who know they are going to die, become something greater and stronger than what they were before. When you are resigned to the fact that each night could be your last, you fight with a determination to go out swinging, while taking as many with you as you can. I would think at some point on the 4th or 5th, they must have known the end was coming soon. If history is correct and they stopped playing the band that last night, I think that any one of the defenders who had any kind of military experience would have identified that as a warning sign....then again, they may have been to tired to even notice. More what ifs.....
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Post by Rich Curilla on Nov 14, 2015 11:22:12 GMT -5
Actually, history tells us that the Mexicans stopped the bombardment the night of the fifth, not the band. We know of one day only when the Texians were serenaded by the band. As for the Deguello being played as *entertainment*, nothing other than latter day tradition (and JLH's movie) suggests this, and I even have doubts as to whether it was used during the battle since it was a cavalry bugle call and this was an infantry attack. No primary account refers to it, and it's first appearance is in Reuben M. Potter's 1860 account with no reference given. But this is a different matter. While the cessation of the cannonade and bombardment at nightfall of the fifth is definitely from primary sources, it is probably more because of other reasons (like having the soldados turn in at sunset so they could be prepared to move into position when the moon came up. If he could avoid it, why would Santa Anna allow any change in nightly routine that would even suggest an attack in the morning, when he planned it as a surprise?
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Post by sloanrodgers on Nov 15, 2015 17:43:35 GMT -5
I don't think Bowie died quietly in bed, but went out with a bang. I guess it doesn't really matter either way. Bowie was there and the vast majority of Texans were not.
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Post by stuart on Dec 5, 2015 11:34:24 GMT -5
I'd still love to read Stuart's article on the possible state of Bowie's health at the time of the battle if anyone knows how it can be accessed. Can't help you on that one I'm afraid, even the original manuscript is lost on a long dead hard-drive. After reading up on accounts of typhoid pneumonia, including testimony by those who had and survived, it soon became clear that the time factor was critical in understanding Bowie's prognosis. To put it very simply while the ailment was frequently fatal, death normally occurred within a relatively short time of contracting it. Therefore if Bowie was still alive more than a week after falling over, he was actually past the danger point and probably moving towards recovery
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Dec 5, 2015 19:20:18 GMT -5
Thanks, Stuart. I can relate to the computer problem: today one I was using last night won't start up. I'm hoping my computer-expert son can do something about it when he comes home. Also, I've been trying to get all of my manuscripts together as Word files, but one is on an Amstrad floppy disc, and another is a Word Perfect file on two missing floppy disc. In two of our earthquakes a few years ago my study was trashed and I think some things must have ended up in the wrong folders when I tried to sort everything out, as a library card and a university photocopy card with money on it have never turned up either.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Dec 5, 2015 21:02:14 GMT -5
This is a very interesting possibility, Stuart. My only discouraging words would be why wouldn't Juana Navarro Alsbury have said this? She was there the whole time even though not in the same building. I would think she would have been thrilled and would have made a big deal out of it.
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Post by stuart on Dec 6, 2015 3:48:29 GMT -5
Oh don't get me wrong. Those accounts are all pretty unanimous as to the long recovery period and convalescence - I'm still not fully recovered from pneumonia contracted four years ago. Bowie may not have been dying by the morning of March 6 but he was still a very sick man.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Dec 9, 2015 13:10:55 GMT -5
My friend Kristi Hale, a true Bowie admirer, offered this insightful observation for our consideration:
"Pneumonia often leads to secondary infections. I would expect that to be even more likely in a situation where the lung has already been compromised (Sandbar). Didn't Dr. Sutherland refer to Bowie's illness as peculiar? Like Crockett's peculiar cap, I take that to mean the doc knew that Bowie's problem was unique to him, bringing me back again to the old lung injury being involved. It could simply have opened up due to a bad cough (flu? cold?) then become infected. Or this AND the pneumonia. We can only make an educated guess."
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