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Post by gtj222 on Aug 9, 2010 9:09:09 GMT -5
This is a question I have struggled with for a long time and I think I have read all of the accounts on it and I still have questions about it. If Bowie was so sick that he had to be confined to bed, did he really have the strength to shoot two pistols and even grab his knife? My common sense tells me that he was probably too sick to fight and may not even have been aware of what was going on. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts?
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Post by martyb on Aug 9, 2010 10:35:07 GMT -5
There is still the nine year old boy watching Disney's "Davy Crockett" part of me that likes to think Bowie died in grand style taking 10 or 12 Mexican soldiers with him. However, I believe that he was so far gone or already dead that he never knew what hit him. The accounts of him 'hiding' beneath covers or in the bed make me feel he didn't go down shooting and stabbing. Just remember, however, his character was such that he would have if he could have.
Always remember in the discussions about how and why so-and-so died that the point really is, 200 or more men went into the final battle and they all perished.
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Post by gtj222 on Aug 9, 2010 12:29:32 GMT -5
Marty, I have always felt that the Mexican accounts of him 'hiding' beneath the covers made me feel like he was either dead with the covers pulled over his face by one of the defenders after he died or he was so sick with chills and fever he was out of his mind. No doubt if he had been able he would have fought.
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Post by marklemon on Aug 9, 2010 12:50:12 GMT -5
Tom, Candalaria says that he was conscious but extremely ill when the battle began, but that he died a few minutes before the Mexicans arrived in the room. As Huffines has shown, her testimony, in light of a different interpretation of what she is describing (ie: the plaza, and the movements of the Mexicans in the south, etc.) indicates a greater validity that it had previously (not to say it is true, just worthy of consideration). Mark
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Post by gtj222 on Aug 9, 2010 13:55:15 GMT -5
Thanks, Mark. Didn't I read where she also gave a different story wherein she describes him killing two Mexicans with pistols? I have always questioned her truthfulness, but am I reading your post right....that new evidence has surfaced to give her more validity in her story? Or am I confused?
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 9, 2010 14:00:29 GMT -5
There is still the nine year old boy watching Disney's "Davy Crockett" part of me that likes to think Bowie died in grand style taking 10 or 12 Mexican soldiers with him. However, I believe that he was so far gone or already dead that he never knew what hit him. The accounts of him 'hiding' beneath covers or in the bed make me feel he didn't go down shooting and stabbing. Just remember, however, his character was such that he would have if he could have. Always remember in the discussions about how and why so-and-so died that the point really is, 200 or more men went into the final battle and they all perished. Over the years, the pile of soldados seems to have gotten higher and higher while the knife got bigger and bigger.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 9, 2010 14:37:49 GMT -5
There is still the nine year old boy watching Disney's "Davy Crockett" part of me that likes to think Bowie died in grand style taking 10 or 12 Mexican soldiers with him. However, I believe that he was so far gone or already dead that he never knew what hit him. The accounts of him 'hiding' beneath covers or in the bed make me feel he didn't go down shooting and stabbing. Just remember, however, his character was such that he would have if he could have. Always remember in the discussions about how and why so-and-so died that the point really is, 200 or more men went into the final battle and they all perished. Over the years, the pile of soldados seems to have gotten higher and higher while the knife got bigger and bigger. Since the only witnesses to his death were the Mexicans who killed him, and none of them has left an account, as with so many other things Alamo, we are left with speculation. I think Jack Davis has the most realistic speculative scenario on Bowie's death in Three Roads to the Alamo. The only evidence is that he was dead, and I'll stick with Gil Grissom's directive to "follow the evidence." Allen
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Post by Chuck T on Aug 9, 2010 18:42:27 GMT -5
I hope so, but hope and think are different.
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Post by marklemon on Aug 9, 2010 21:26:49 GMT -5
Thanks, Mark. Didn't I read where she also gave a different story wherein she describes him killing two Mexicans with pistols? I have always questioned her truthfulness, but am I reading your post right....that new evidence has surfaced to give her more validity in her story? Or am I confused? Tom, Check out Huffines' "Blood.." on page 154, and read the Candaleria excerpt. Last paragraph. Then read Alan's footnote. Seems she has long been (evidently) misunderstood when she referred to the "plaza," everyone thinking she meant the Alamo Plaza, and not realizing that if she, in fact, meant the plaza outside to the south of the main gate, in pueblo del Alamo, then her account makes sense, even to the Morales column storming the SW corner, then running along the south wall interior to get to the gate. Mark
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Post by gtj222 on Aug 9, 2010 21:31:24 GMT -5
Mark, Will do. Again...Thank you my friend!
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 9, 2010 23:38:20 GMT -5
While you're at it, check Hansen on Candelaria (pp. 322-23).
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Post by marklemon on Aug 10, 2010 0:23:05 GMT -5
Yes Allen, I'm very aware of the problems in her many accounts. So to clear up any misunderstanding, I simply refer to my original post, where I say that some details in her account indicate: "a greater validity than it had previously (not to say it is true, just worthy of consideration)." I think that's a fair statement....
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Post by marklemon on Aug 10, 2010 0:50:36 GMT -5
Mark, Will do. Again...Thank you my friend! De nada, amigo.
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Post by g2smythson on Mar 9, 2011 20:16:43 GMT -5
I have Primary source evidence that there were rumors after the fall of the Alamo that Bowie did indeed commit suicide. In a letter written by George W. Smyth dated March 27th, 1836 to his father Andrew Smyth of Alabama, Smyth States:
"-- Col. Wm B. Travis, Commander was killed in the early part of the action--Col. Bowie was sick & unable to take any part in the action, but blew his own brains out with a pistol".
I have always wondered at the graphic description - It seems almost to be a verbatim repeat of a heard rumor.
Smyth was at Washington on the Brazos at Convention March 1-17th - so he would have heard many rumors during the convention. This letter is at the State Archives and was the letter that accompanied a Texas Declaration of Independence broadside that Smyth sent to his father in Alabama. This DOI broadside is in the University of Texas at Arlington Rare / Special Collections Library.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Mar 20, 2011 7:50:29 GMT -5
Like so many things "Alamo", at the end of the day it might be "nice to know", but it truly doesn't matter. Ditto for questions about Crockett's death, Travis' line in the sand, and so on. They all died in some way, in the face of overwhelming odds, for things they believed in. They chose to stay, fight and ultimately die. Whether anyone attempted surrender, took their own life when those final moments came, went down swinging and stabbing, or merely passed away of natural causes, it truly doesn't matter. None of those "other" possibilities (surrender, suicide, etc.) lessens what these men did that day 175 years ago.
Paul
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