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Post by tmdreb on Jul 5, 2009 21:44:19 GMT -5
Mark,
You've probably seen Reuben M. Potter's 1874 letter to Henry McArdle, but here's an appropriate excerpt:
I don't know that I've really seen this depicted much, but it would be neat to see.
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Post by martinvasquez on Jul 5, 2009 23:01:23 GMT -5
Hey Phil, Could you explain frogged and braided, what does that look like? Do you think this could be the tailless jacket which would be very similar to the white fatigue jacket? Martin
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Post by stuart on Jul 6, 2009 6:49:22 GMT -5
Go away for a couple of weeks and look what happens...
Some links worked, some didn't. The battle of Tampico painting was interesting but other than the useful commentary I don't really think its an improvement on the hard copy in the Time Life book on the Spanish West.
I can't really form a conclusion as to whether the cavalry in the background are wearing black covered helmets, or are wearing bearskins, but I'd still reckon the guy in the foreground who certainly is wearing a bearskin is an elite company trooper rather than a mounted gastadore.
(Incidentally, Fede, the guy on the left of the command group is an Activo officer in green)
As to the yellowish coats, these are a pretty standard design of cavalry foul weather gear. The wide sleeve simply allows them to be dragged on and off easily, especially when wet.
I doubt whether the bandanna is a bandage. If it was I wouldn't reckon on him still wearing the chaco. On the other hand there's plenty of illustration evidence over here of French and Spanish troops in the Napoleonic Wars routinely wearing bandanas under their hats and chacos.
As to the braided and frogged jackets I can't really comment with any authority as I've not seen any Mexican examples or illustrations.
Later in the century here was a tendency in the British Army for officers who ought to have been wearing scarlet jackets, to instead wear "undress" blue ones, togged up with black mohair braiding or cords in order to look military - a practise also followed to some extent I believe by the US Army - although contemporary with the period when McArdle was collecting his notes rather than in the 1830s.
My own impression is that in the 1830s Mexican officers were probably more likely to wear Levita style frock-coats - like their British counterparts
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Post by TRK on Jul 6, 2009 6:55:26 GMT -5
The battle of Tampico painting was interesting but other than the useful commentary I don't really think its an improvement on the hard copy in the Time Life book on the Spanish West. The advantage of the jpeg that Martin posted is that, because it is very high resolution (at least the version that he first posted was), you can paste the image into a halfway decent photo program (like MS Picture It) and zoom in incredibly close, revealing many details.
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fede
Full Member
Posts: 19
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Post by fede on Jul 6, 2009 8:37:01 GMT -5
Thank you Martin,excellent image ! I need colour plates because as a wargamer I'm trying to built up a "decent" Mexican Army,using Perry Miniatures's 1st Carlist War range,expecially the generals,Infantry in bell top shako and Line Cavalry......comments would be appreciated ! P.S. I'm using these figures because the sculpts are beautiful and it's the Spanish Army of 1830...... as for the officers' dress at the Alamo,I think that their uniforms were the result of regulations,issues made by the Quartermaster and a little touch of local dress (the white hats and sombreros) ! Santa Anna considered himself the Napoleon of the West,but even the real Napoleon had experienced difficulties in dressing his armies properly during his reign(Russia,Spain,Hundred days'campaigns) !!
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fede
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Post by fede on Jul 6, 2009 8:41:20 GMT -5
Also his"Army of Operations"was roughly 6,000 men......a SINGLE DIVISION in the French Army of Napoleonic times was 10,000 or sometimes more men !!!
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Post by stuart on Jul 6, 2009 9:14:55 GMT -5
Also his"Army of Operations"was roughly 6,000 men......a SINGLE DIVISION in the French Army of Napoleonic times was 10,000 or sometimes more men !!! Perfectly true, as I pointed out on another thread all of the battles in Texas (and the casualties) were pretty small beer by comparison with Albuera where Filisola fought in his younger days - on the other hand, personal issues aside its the very intimacy of the Texas campaign that I find so appealing
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Post by tmdreb on Jul 6, 2009 22:02:49 GMT -5
This is a reproduction of what I believe Potter was describing: picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pySpvoqiB1jTD6pTtX1kIAYes, it's a reproduction, and probably not the best example, but it was easy to find and I think it gives a pretty good idea. Another quickie image: www.lawrences.co.uk/Catalogues/HO091007/page13.htmThis is an example of a patrol jacket. These have been around since the 1860's or so, and as Stuart pointed out, would have been familiar to McArdle. Yes, a Mexican officer could have worn something like this, but in a pattern more suitable for the era. I realize these are not the most authentic examples, but I was looking for images that were large and clear enough to show some details. I think it's entirely likely that infantry officers would have worn frocks. I do think it's worth noting that Potter so specifically describes officers' uniforms, though. Perhaps he is referring to cavalry officers? I don't think a braided and frogged pelisse would have been out of place on a Mexican cavalry officer in 1836.
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Post by martinvasquez on Jul 6, 2009 23:37:50 GMT -5
OK, so really like a French dolman or pelise! General Cos was said to wear very elaborate uniforms. The one crude engraving which is shown in "Texian Illiad" shows Cos wearing a similar jacket. Hefter also puts Cos in this green jacket in his "Council of War" print. Also in 1826 the Mexican army received for their active militia new cavalry uniforms imported from England. These jackets also fit the bill. I have posted two prints with these examples on my photobucket account s832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/flintlockmaster/Martin Vasquez
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Post by stuart on Jul 7, 2009 0:37:13 GMT -5
General Cos was said to wear very elaborate uniforms. The one crude engraving which is shown in "Texian Illiad" shows Cos wearing a similar jacket. Hefter also puts Cos in this green jacket in his "Council of War" print. True, but didn't somebody discover that this particular "portrait" was only an opportunistically re-labelled illustration of the Czar of the All the Russias?
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Post by martinvasquez on Jul 7, 2009 1:22:25 GMT -5
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Post by stuart on Jul 7, 2009 5:06:36 GMT -5
Hmmm... not quite. The Nicholas of the painting and the "Cos" of the engraving are clearly one and the same but the uniform is obviously quite different. My money would be on the engraving being a different portrait of his supreme highness (or whatever) in Hussar uniform
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Post by stuart on Jul 7, 2009 5:09:28 GMT -5
Mark, You've probably seen Reuben M. Potter's 1874 letter to Henry McArdle, but here's an appropriate excerpt: I don't know that I've really seen this depicted much, but it would be neat to see. If you step back and think about it this isn't so very far removed from what we think of as "traditional" Mexican dress
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Post by tmdreb on Jul 7, 2009 20:59:22 GMT -5
If you step back and think about it this isn't so very far removed from what we think of as "traditional" Mexican dress Not at all. What I meant was that most modern depictions of Mexican officers show ornately decorated tailcoats and chapeau de bras. An illustration in a book or a movie costume that reflected Potter's description would be a departure from what is now the norm.
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Post by stuart on Jul 8, 2009 1:02:46 GMT -5
I agree entirely and its interesting that early Alamo artwork, like Onderdonk's painting does illustrate officers in this "Mexican" dress rather than tailcoats
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