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Post by tmdreb on Jun 24, 2009 0:16:23 GMT -5
The first link talks about the figures in the lower right hand corner as having waterproof ponchos. What looks like an officer wearing a plumed helmet facing the viewer with his hand outstretched towards the Spanish position certainly could be wearing a poncho. I always thought it looked like some sort of cavalry stable frock.
Could this be a waterproofed "duck cape"?
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Post by TRK on Jun 24, 2009 6:56:41 GMT -5
Indeed, the key to the painting reads rainproof poncho (manga de lluvia), but I agree that it looks more like a cloak, frock, etc., since it seems to have a sleeve.
Martin, can you tell from your copy of the painting if it's a poncho or a garment with sleeves?
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Post by martinvasquez on Jun 24, 2009 13:34:13 GMT -5
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Post by TRK on Jun 24, 2009 14:30:20 GMT -5
Whoa, that jpeg is really high-definition; it lets you get right in there close. Thank you, Martin! Rather than a poncho, the garment on the man waving at the lower right looks to me more like a caped overcoat. The British artist Daniel Thomas Egerton, in his oil painting, The Valley of Mexico (1837: currently in the Government Art Collection, UK), included several dragoons in the foreground. One is wearing a buff colored or light-yellow caped overcoat similar to that shown in Linati's plate 27. The dragoon next to him, while wearing a red coat, has what is clearly a yellowish or buff object rolled up behind his saddle--likely an overcoat. A bit farther, several horsemen, including at least one dragoon in red coat, are riding down a gully; the horseman in front is wearing a yellowish garment that appears to be the same type of caped overcoat. I'm basing these observations on an enlargement I made from a reproduction of the painting in the book Mexico: Splendors of Thirty Centuries (Metropolitan Museum of Art, and Bullfinch: 1990). A low-resolution jpeg of the painting can be seen here: www.gac.culture.gov.uk/search/Object.asp?object_key=24210
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Post by tmdreb on Jun 24, 2009 19:21:57 GMT -5
It's not what I'd usually call a poncho, but it doesn't really look like an overcoat of that era, either. I'm at a bit of a loss because I'm not really familiar with any kind of coat with sleeves that wide.
I have seen natural cotton treated with boiled linseed oil and no other pigment. The result is a kind of pale yellow, not too different from that garment.
That other painting looks interesting, but that image is far too small for my eyes.
I'm also interested in what the pointing grenadier in the Tampico painting is wearing on his head. It's a bit hard to make out.
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Post by marklemon on Jun 24, 2009 21:47:56 GMT -5
Phil, It's most likely a light colored bandana, although I agree it does not look much like one. Many soldados wore them under their shakos to help prevent chafing. Can't imagine what else it could be...perhaps a bandage for a head-wound? Mark
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Post by Kevin Young on Jun 24, 2009 22:00:28 GMT -5
Phil, It's most likely a light colored bandana, although I agree it does not look much like one. Many soldados wore them under their shakos to help prevent chafing. Can't imagine what else it could be... Mark Martin, I could not get your jpeg to load. This is some great stuff.
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Post by martinvasquez on Jun 25, 2009 16:33:47 GMT -5
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 25, 2009 17:06:10 GMT -5
This one worked for me, Martin, where the other didn't. Thanks! Jim
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Post by marklemon on Jul 2, 2009 22:17:18 GMT -5
Was wondering if anyone has a source on what type (dress or undress) uniforms that were worn by the field grade Mexican officers during the march 6th assault?
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fede
Full Member
Posts: 19
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Post by fede on Jul 4, 2009 4:13:06 GMT -5
Searching for a plate depicting a MILICIA ACTIVA cavalryman with his pretty green uniform.....
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Post by martinvasquez on Jul 5, 2009 11:33:36 GMT -5
s832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/flintlockmaster/This link will show you a color print from the late Charles McBarron that showcases the Mexican Army of 1835. In the middle of the print you will see a Mexican Active Militia Officer with red sash and silver fringed eppaulettes on a green, trimmed red jacket. Martin
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Post by marklemon on Jul 5, 2009 11:52:09 GMT -5
Martin, What are your thoughts as to the uniform worn by Mexican field officers during the March 6th assault, dress, or undress? Or was this something that might have been left to the individual officer's discretion? Mark
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Post by martinvasquez on Jul 5, 2009 13:28:43 GMT -5
Hey Mark, I was already going to respond to your question, but I wanted to think about it a little more. An undress uniform for Officers with a General's rank was specified in 1823 consisting of a dark blue coat, without lapels or piping. A good example is the Paris Print of Filisola in the Chartrand "Santa Anna's Mexican Army". In the print Filisola's jacket has a red collar instead of blue. I could find nothing that talks about the undress officer under the rank of General but I assume they did have an undress jacket which would have been similar to the Generals in theory. Ofcourse the quality and embroidery would have been less elaborate. Although officers did pay for their own uniforms and would have had them made by personal tailors so some could have had rather fancy jackets as well. If I am not mistaken it was De La Pena that mentions that Santa Anna ordered the army to change into their dress uniforms before they entered San Antonio. This information combined with the norm of armies of this time to wear their dress uniforms for parade and battle, I would assume they would have been wearing their dress uniforms during the assualt. We also have to remember that Santa Anna was all about the spectacle and lived by the motto clothes make the man. I do not believe that lower ranking officers would have been able to make the decision to modify their uniforms while on duty except for probably Aide- de-camp's which has been documented in the Mexican army of this period. Chartrand mentions that Colonel Almonte during the Texas campaign "wore a light blue coat w/green collar, red sash and silver buttons." If Almonte is wearing this jacket(no source given by Chartrand) this would give some evidence of lower ranking officers modifying their uniforms. We also have the account from De La Pena that some officers were wearing white (Tejano) style hats during the assault. Zaboly illustrates this in "Blood of Noble Men" no explanation was given, nor explicit orders that these were to be worn during the assault. Just my thoughts. Martin
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Post by marklemon on Jul 5, 2009 14:50:32 GMT -5
Martin, Thanks for your response..some good points there. In looking at the Tampico painting, I see that there seems to be a mix of dress and undress uniforms. Santa Anna seems to be in undress, (but then again, he could have worn whatever he wanted) while Teran is in a dress coat. I agree that, in theory at least, it makes sense that the Mexican (under Santa Anna) style, as well as the tradition of the times would have dictated that the officers wore their dress uniforms. Undoubtedly, as elsewhere in real life, there would have been exceptions, either where an officer purposely wore his custom-made (perhaps undress) uniform, or another didn't get the word. Mark
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