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Post by garyzaboly on May 21, 2009 5:22:57 GMT -5
I do remember hearing about that flag, myself. I asked Dr. Bruce Winders about his impressions of the cloth, since he'd seen it in person. He said the blue was almost black, the red was just an ordinary red, and that the cloth was very thick and dense. Gary, you mentioned a wool fatigue jacket was issued by the Mexican Army in Blood of Noble Men. I haven't come across any other mention of this, so I'm pretty curious. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on the subject? That reference---wool and linen fatigue jackets---comes from a list written in February 1833 for a single Mexican company. Aside from those two items, there was a "dress coat." In 1836, however, we only know of two changes of clothing for the army---viz., dress and fatigue. The cavalry units, of course, had ponchos and capes, and after San Jacinto the ponchos were sold off by Texian officers.
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Post by garyzaboly on May 21, 2009 5:26:16 GMT -5
Agreed! It would be nice to be able to get into the Mexican Defense Archives and see what they have in the way of documentation related to the material culture of the army... I think Steve Hardin will remember this, but someone out in West Texas had a Texas flag that according to family sources was made of cloth taken from Mexican uniforms captured at San Jacinto. If I recall, the white star and bar was not of the same material as the rest of the flag...I think Steve got to see it-I did not. Steve might be able to provide more information...and of course, it could be just one of those things that would be hard to prove... This is an old refrain----going into the Mexican archives---and I know of just a few who actually did get into Mexican archives, Lee Spencer-White among them (although she wasn't looking for uniform or architecture items). So it's not impossible to do. However she went during a bad heat wave and found that the archives room had no air conditioning!
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Post by marklemon on May 21, 2009 13:37:48 GMT -5
The fact remains that the Mexican government, and their subsidiaries (i.e. state run museums) have been for the most part notoriously intransigent when granting free access to Americans to their files. This is especially true when the researcher is looking for Texas revolution data. Excuses are often made, such as, "we are renovating," or" those files cannot be located just now..perhaps if you come back next week?" are commonly heard excuses. Not saying the occasional person does not get in, or if they get in, that they actually get what they came for, just that it's not a common occurrence.
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Post by garyzaboly on May 21, 2009 14:13:08 GMT -5
The fact remains that the Mexican government, and their subsidiaries (i.e. state run museums) have been for the most part notoriously intransigent when granting free access to their files. This is especially true when the researcher is looking for Texas revolution data. Excuses are often made, such as, "we are renovating," or" those files cannot be located just now..perhaps if you come back next week?" are commonly heard excuses. So if someone got in, and actually found and copied what they were looking for, it was the exception, and not the rule............... or else they weren't looking for Alamo-related material. She was looking for Alamo-related material, and yes indeed, it was the exception, as I noted.
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Post by TRK on May 21, 2009 14:20:56 GMT -5
Twenty years ago I went on a research trip to northeastern Mexico. As an example, I readily gained admission to the Archivo Historico Matheo at the Colegio San Ignacio de Loyola in Parras, and they treated me like a king, allowing me to freely use documents going back to the sixteenth century and up to the 1840s; making free copies of anything I needed; even providing meals. Then, I went to the Nuevo Leon state archives in Monterrey, accompanied with credentials and a friend who was a member of the Sociedad Neoleonese de Historia to vouch for me, and hit a total brick wall from "la directora." The line she gave me was they were suspicious of norteamericano researchers, because people posing as scholars had pilfered a lot of documents from various Mexican archives in the 1970s and '80s--which actually happened. Later, some of my Mexican friends told me she treated the archives like her own personal fiefdom, and even they had trouble getting cooperation or access to materials. I won't tell you the nickname they had for her I don't know what the answer to gaining meaningful, free, and ongoing access to the national military archives is, but it might help to have a lot of political clout and connections, a willingness to dispense, ahem, "tips," as well as being a national with a strong military background.
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Post by marklemon on May 21, 2009 15:15:00 GMT -5
So then the "old refrain" is a valid point. Based upon the few examples that we know about, the Mexican Army kept fairly good records, and certainly those records have in them a wealth of knowledge which cannot be found, with reliability, anywhere else.
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Post by Kevin Young on May 21, 2009 18:10:21 GMT -5
Twenty years ago I went on a research trip to northeastern Mexico. As an example, I readily gained admission to the Archivo Historico Matheo at the Colegio San Ignacio de Loyola in Parras, and they treated me like a king, allowing me to freely use documents going back to the sixteenth century and up to the 1840s; making free copies of anything I needed; even providing meals. Then, I went to the Nuevo Leon state archives in Monterrey, accompanied with credentials and a friend who was a member of the Sociedad Neoleonese de Historia to vouch for me, and hit a total brick wall from "la directora." The line she gave me was they were suspicious of norteamericano researchers, because people posing as scholars had pilfered a lot of documents from various Mexican archives in the 1970s and '80s--which actually happened. Later, some of my Mexican friends told me she treated the archives like her own personal fiefdom, and even they had trouble getting cooperation or access to materials. I won't tell you the nickname they had for her I don't know what the answer to gaining meaningful, free, and ongoing access to the national military archives is, but it might help to have a lot of political clout and connections, a willingness to dispense, ahem, "tips," as well as being a national with a strong military background. Same sort of experience in Saltillo...but over at Viesca (Alamo de Parras) the parish priest and the local historian gave me full freedom to look at the parish records...of course, I had a San Antonio university not let me look at a collection because the volunteer who was going through it was going to be given first crack at it...(and it was not UTSA-Dora Guerra was one and is one of the best librarians I know).
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Post by garyzaboly on May 22, 2009 3:23:50 GMT -5
And yet William C. Davis (and Jack Jackson, if I'm not mistaken), were able to make some breakthrough research in Mexican archives, in a very limited amount of time, so the "old refrain" about hitting a brick wall is not always true. J. C. Hefter scoured Mexican archives over a very long period of time...and it's doubtful that anyone will ever match his work in this field for sheer quantity of results. Of course his major concern was Mexican Army, not necessarily Alamo history.
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Post by marklemon on May 22, 2009 8:30:25 GMT -5
garyzaboly wrote "And yet William C. Davis (and Jack Jackson, if I'm not mistaken), were able to make some breakthrough research in Mexican archives, in a very limited amount of time, so the "old refrain" about hitting a brick wall is not always true." Not saying the occasional person does not get in, or if they get in, that they actually get what they came for, just that it's not a common occurrence. uh...isn't that what I said.. ?
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Post by Kevin Young on May 22, 2009 9:45:06 GMT -5
Gary-Jack (Davis) did use some dipolmatic resources to get in, and even then, he will admit it was an "interesting" experience. Jack (Jackson) knew folks, work his charm, and had work enough in other archives to be able to get in. Several othe folks I know how various experiences, including one researcher who had all his ducks in a row till the typest filling out the permission form put the wrong date for the years he wanted to look at the documents: and even though it was "their" mistake, he was not allowed to look at anything from any other time period other that was on the permitt.
Hefter had contacts, and having done business so many years in Mexico, knew how to get into collectons, both private, public, and military.
I think we can all agree, Mexican museums, archives, and the military do things a lot different than we do here: and that is part of our frustration. Yet, that frustration will remain, even as vairous individuals may get in to look at this material. That said, the current situation in Mexico is not going to make it any easier.
Remember, Mexico does not have a tradition in military studies as we do, nor do Mexican historians (in general) have an deep interest in material culture (as do we). Social and political themes drives their historical studies.
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Post by garyzaboly on May 22, 2009 12:15:45 GMT -5
Gary-Jack (Davis) did use some dipolmatic resources to get in, and even then, he will admit it was an "interesting" experience. Jack (Jackson) knew folks, work his charm, and had work enough in other archives to be able to get in. Several othe folks I know how various experiences, including one researcher who had all his ducks in a row till the typest filling out the permission form put the wrong date for the years he wanted to look at the documents: and even though it was "their" mistake, he was not allowed to look at anything from any other time period other that was on the permitt. Hefter had contacts, and having done business so many years in Mexico, knew how to get into collectons, both private, public, and military. I think we can all agree, Mexican museums, archives, and the military do things a lot different than we do here: and that is part of our frustration. Yet, that frustration will remain, even as vairous individuals may get in to look at this material. That said, the current situation in Mexico is not going to make it any easier. Remember, Mexico does not have a tradition in military studies as we do, nor do Mexican historians (in general) have an deep interest in material culture (as do we). Social and political themes drives their historical studies. Precisely, Kevin...with enough persistence and determination, contacts, and diplomacy, chances are the right person CAN get into SOME of the archives. That right person seems to be someone with a legitmate, published track record, said record of whom poses no threat to Mexicans or Mexican history. How accessible Mexico City would be if the researcher noted that Mexican Army culture was his goal! According to William C. Davis, his visit there "came off almost without a hitch." Rene Chartrand has also visited the Archivo General de la Nacion, and has done so very profitably. (He's also been to archives in Spain and South America). So..a good track record...benign intent...impressive references...an understanding of the language or a translator with you...and one's chances should be good, provided you are not intimidated by kidnappers and drug cartels.
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Post by marklemon on May 22, 2009 18:00:28 GMT -5
I agree with the first part of that statement, i.e., that determination, contacts, and diplomacy can , in some cases, work, but I doubt very much if government/national archive officials in Mexico are impressed or persuaded by American credentials ("legitimate, published track record"). Instead, I believe that, as is the case in other places around the world, such as, for example, Eastern Europe, it depends on the persuasive/bartering skills of one's interpreter. Go to the National Museum in Kiev, Ukraine, and ask to see the military archives of that country. You'll get a flat rejection. The museum official, upon hearing your American accent, won't even look up from their desk....Tell them that you have a "published, legitimate track record," or "impressive references," and they will either laugh in your face, or coldly tell you you'll have to wait six months to fill out an application to review their documents. Fill out their permission form, and chances are the wait will be prohibitive, if you even hear back from them at all..... Conversely, if you show up with a very saavy interpreter, who knows the officials in question, there can be a world of difference. For a slight, well, "inducement," permission may be granted, but then, with very strict conditions.
Bottom line: If you are an unknown commodity to them, gaining access largely depends upon whose palm is greased, or the caprices of whatever official is present that day. On the other hand, if you live and work down there, are a familiar face, and/or have some very good local connections, the world can be your oyster.... But American reputations mean little to them, and using one's "track record" to gain access will likely just make them move slower.
It all comes down to two concepts: The Mexicans, perhaps for some legitimate reasons, don't like Americans...and their entire system of government is corrupt. Add these two factors together and it's no wonder that not many Americans can get into their files.
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Post by tmdreb on May 22, 2009 21:26:59 GMT -5
Let's be careful to not get another thread shut down. Perhaps the discussion on the most effective means of bribery can get its own topic or be continued in private.
I wouldn't be too surprised if the Mexican Army followed the method of many European armies by cutting the tails off old coats and reissuing them as fatigue jackets.
I've often wondered about the shakos, as well. I kept finding it hard to believe that an army that couldn't even manage to supply its soldiers with wool coats, much less overcoats, could still find the funds to put a decorated leather shako on everyone's head.
Recently, I've been learning about the shakos issued in the first half of the 19th Century by European powers and have discovered that not all were made of leather or felt. Many were apparently cardboard or pasteboard covered in painted cloth, or even wicker frames covered in linen. Both will give the appearance of a shako with a cover over it.
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Post by tmdreb on May 22, 2009 23:14:31 GMT -5
Mark,
Without pointing fingers, I was trying to point out that a lot of the posts in this thread are starting to develop a familiar "tone".
I wasn't taking offense at you pointing out Mexican corruption. I think most anyone who's not completely naive would take that for granted.
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Post by marklemon on May 23, 2009 0:11:53 GMT -5
Mark, Without pointing fingers, I was trying to point out that a lot of the posts in this thread are starting to develop a familiar "tone". Phil, Yeah brother....Welcome to my world for the last few months... There is an interesting Mexican document in the de la Pena papers dated June 30th, 1836, which spells out how much of various pieces of equipment, including uniform items, the army had on hand after returning to Matamoros from Texas. I haven't completely translated the entire document yet, but among the items listed are "duck jackets" as well as "duck capes." Other listings show overcoats, and "coarse woolen cloaks."
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