A new find!

[Paul Sylvain]

I hadn't heard that, Dave, but I guess anything is possible. My question would be "how high"? We know that the walls in the chapel didn't extend as high as they do now. Some of the smaller rooms had a roof over them, but the main part of the chapel was wide open with just the ramp going to the back where there were some cannons.

Also, given the changes to the structure with the arrival of the U.S. Army, and the use of the building by U.S. and Confederate troops, and so on, I guess I'd be suspicious of the carvings (they could have been done any time after the battle).

But, perhaps someone here has some definitive answers on this one.

[cantador4u]

Is there a website with the Eastman drawing? I would like to see what you are referring to.

- Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin

[Allen Wiener]

Try this link, then click "Search" at the bottom of the list on the left; type in "Eastman" and you should get a bunch of Alamo Images:

www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/dewitt.htm

I don't know if this is the Eastman you're referring to, but here's one watercolor of his from 1848:

Try this link, then click "Search" at the bottom of the list on the left; type in "Eastman" and you should get a bunch of Alamo Images:

www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/dewitt.htm

[TRK]

Or,

140.247.102.177/col/Image.cfm?ImageFile=%2Fcol%2Fimages%2Fbig%2F8000%2F8001%2F80010023.jpg&Caption=Church%20of%20the%20Alamo.%20Texas%2C%20Nov.%2025%2C%201848%3B%20Peabody%20Number%2041-72-10%2F101

[Allen Wiener]

I think all/most of the Eastman's are in Nelson's book too.

[daverothe]

Paul,

When I was reading on the San Antonio website about the new archway they found, it had mentioned that there was a name "Joseph" that was writen on the wall. It went on to say that they had found graffiti from the defenders on the high walls of the chapel. I was curious as to what is written.

Also, I had read where they found the name David Crockett on the inside of the statue covey arch on the front of the chapel and it was being studies to see if David really wrote it or was it a well-designed fake.

[Paul Sylvain]

Now this is getting really interesting. I saw some TV coverage of the find, but thought the graffiti might have been more from post-battle eras. If this bears out and is true -- including the Crockett name -- then you can only imagine that maybe these guys wanted desperately to leave something behind attesting to their presence there.

Paul

[Jim Boylston]

The "Crocket" inscription (if memory serves, it's just with one "T") is visible in one of the niches to the right of the front door to the church. I don't see how it could ever be verified as authentic. I'm dubious.
Jim

[daverothe]

I think so too......while I do agree that it is hard to prove if it is authentic or not, it definitely draws the imagination as to what they left for us to find and see.

Dave

[marklemon]

The circumstantial evidence is strongly against Crockett carving his name in the niche. We know, from the earliest (1838) sketches of the church facade, that there were statues in the four niches during the siege and battle period. If this is true, and it appears to be so, it would not be possible for anyone, including Crockett, to have carved his name where it appears in the right interior side of the lower right niche.

[Paul Sylvain]

You make a good point, Mark. I'd forgotten about the presence of the statues during the siege (how quickly we forget), but to me that seals the deal against the name being authentic.

[Hiram]

Here's the latest about the find.

1. There is some new graffiti uncovered after the removal of the Army fill. The clearest name is .... (first initial missing) E. Oatman, M.D., 1847. There was an Dr. Ira E. Oatman, born in New Albany, IN in 1819, and later married in Dundee (Kane County), IL in 1847. Perhaps he and his bride went to San Antonio on their honeymoon? (I'm joking, but who knows?) Dr. Oatman ended up in Sacramento in 1849 where he later was a founding member of the Sacramento Society for Medical Improvement. Of course there is no way to link the two other than the name and the era, but it is interesting to think about.

What can be eliminated is the possibility that it was a US Army physician who carved his name. Dr. Bruce Winders perused the Heitman's Historical Dictionary of U.S. Army Officers and found no such name listed.

2. As for the "why" behind the Army's altering of the doorway, I do have a theory based on what I have seen of the uncovered entry way. There is significant damage in the east corner, extending approximately 12 inches into the interior of the wall and probably 10 inches up. That corner has been examined by a structural engineer and has been determined to be sound. Yet, the Army may have seen that damage and as a precaution, decided to fill it in to stabilize it. The other theory is perhaps the Army wanted to fit a door on that entry way and instead of having a five-foot wide arched door custom-built, they decided to alter the shape of the entry way to fit a standard rectangular door.

3. Pam Rosser and her mother Cisi Jary have found pigmentation which indicates there were frescoes in the temporary sacristy or MBC. In addition, mortar samples have been sent to Ossining, New York (yep...the Alamo has been sent to Sing Sing) for analysis.

I'll update more as the story develops.

[Hiram]

Jan 2, 2010 8:45:36 GMT -5 Paul Sylvain said:

Also, given the changes to the structure with the arrival of the U.S. Army, and the use of the building by U.S. and Confederate troops, and so on, I guess I'd be suspicious of the carvings (they could have been done any time after the battle).

But, perhaps someone here has some definitive answers on this one.

I spend about four to five days a week inside the Shrine, so maybe I can help out some. There is very little graffiti on or in the former church which predates the battle. I think the most significant prior to 1836 is the name "Leonard Groce" and the date "1835". Leonard Waller Groce, was the oldest son of Jared Groce, owner of Groce's Plantation and the wealthiest settler in Austin's Colony.

There is graffiti visible on the uppermost reaches of the walls, this being done during the warehouse period when the second floor was added.

With very few exceptions, all of the graffiti appears to be post-1836. The US Army arrived in San Antonio in 1845 and began leasing the Alamo compound in 1847. Most of the carvings appear to be of the period between the 1840s and the end of the 19th century. There is a well-known surname that was carved in 1842, Burleson. But it wasn't Edward Burleson, it was his younger brother, Andrew Bell Burleson. In the late 19th century, you begin to see pencil being used as well as adding hometowns after the name (Bremen, Germany is one). Most of the pencil-writers began to cease and desist by the mid-30s.

The name of David Crocket (sic) carved in the south niche is not authentic. As Mark noted, there is strong evidence that suggests those statues were still in place until the early 1840s. Beyond that, there are lots of names around the Crocket name, none of which are Alamo defenders. If you saw "Crocket" and then you saw "A. Spain Summerlin" and "Richard Stockton". it would lead more credence to the likelihood of being authentic, since those were Alamo defenders known basically only to family and friends. The fact that the only carved name recognizable from the Alamo garrison is also the most famous defender is too coincidental to be considered authentic.

[Paul Sylvain]

As they say, possible, but not probable. Besides, you'd think a guy who get elected to Congress would know how to spell his own name. Sheesh!

[TRK]

Thanks for posting that very interesting information here, Hiram.

Jan 21, 2010 3:01:54 GMT -5 Hiram said:

What can be eliminated is the possibility that it was a US Army physician who carved his name. Dr. Bruce Winders perused the Heitman's Historical Dictionary of U.S. Army Officers and found no such name listed.

Ah, but the army also hired surgeons (and agents, clerks, wagonmasters, inspectors, quartermasters, etc.) on a contract basis during the Mexican War. I'm sifting through a register of civilian employees of the U.S. Army as of September 30, 1847, and these include scores of medics, but so far no Oatman.