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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 25, 2010 8:45:20 GMT -5
Paul, I agree on the Donovan book and, in fact, was reading the battle section of that again the other night. After reading the down-in-the weeds accounts in Gray and Fox, it's good to read the way Donovan distills all that, as does Philbrick. I'll certainly post my impressions after visiting the battlefield. I feel a heck of a lot better prepared to appreciate the place than I would have a year ago. I'm looking forward to it very much, along with Yellowstone, Cody, Deadwood, Mt. Rushmore, etc. A trip I've always wanted to take.
Del - never saw that flag before, but I'll be curious to see how much it goes for. Quite an artifact.
Allen
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Post by Herb on Jun 25, 2010 10:23:29 GMT -5
My computer totally melted down, so I've had limited access and will have until my new one arrives.
Allen, Your review of Fox is I think dead on. I would add, as I mentioned elsewhere, that Fox's conclusions about the the Springfield being a superior weapon on this battlefield, to the repeaters is also a serious error, but despite these flaws Fox's work is one of the most valuable contributions made to explaining the LBH.
I don't know about this particular guidon, but I know one was recaptured along with Keogh's gaunlets when Crook attacked the village at Slim Buttes (?). I don't have any idea what happened to them after they were recaptured.
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Post by Chuck T on Jun 25, 2010 10:49:36 GMT -5
Today is 25 June. It is certainly not buckskin jacket wearing weather in Colorado, and I think the same is true for southern Montana.
The guidon is from Company I and was recovered at Slim Buttes by Private William J. McClinton of Company C, 3rd Cavalry under command of Captain (later General) Anson Mills. It was on loan to the museum of the Military Service Institution at Governor's Island, New York, and fell into disrepair sometimes before 1898. What became of it from there is not known to me, but according to a statement by Mills it was in very bad shape when he last saw it.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 25, 2010 11:02:19 GMT -5
Whatever happened to Comanche? I know he was stuffed or mounted and displayed at West Point for years, but is he still there?
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Jun 25, 2010 12:06:04 GMT -5
Here you go (from: www.roadsideamerica.com/pet/comanche.html)Died c.1890 - Lawrence, Kansas For a generation who are themselves now dead, Comanche was the most famous horse in America; a kind of equine Elvis, revered in death as much as in life. Comanche was the only living thing that the US cavalry got back from the Battle of Little Big Horn. When reinforcements arrived, Custer and all 200+ of his soldiers were dead, and all the horses that survived had been taken by the Indians -- except Comanche, who was injured. The Indians had no use for a horse that couldn't dodge a bullet, but the White Man did. Comanche was nursed back to health and became a living symbol of Manifest Destiny. The public loved him, assuming that he had been Custer's horse (he hadn't) and that he was the Battle's only survivor (he wasn't). This was fine with the Army and the federal government, who wanted the public on their side while they killed Indians. Comanche toured the country, a favorite of parades and patriotic gatherings. So why, when he died, did he end up in the University of Kansas Natural History Museum? Comanche had been stabled at nearby Fort Riley. When he passed away it was immediately assumed that he would be preserved -- and the best taxidermist in Kansas worked at the Museum. Comanche was shipped to the Museum and stuffed. But the officers from Fort Riley -- who perhaps realized that most Indians were by now either captured or dead -- never bothered to pick him up (or to pay the taxidermy bill). So Comanche stayed. Aside from being shipped to Chicago to be displayed at the 1893 Columbian Exposition, he's been here ever since. Comanche is still on exhibit, in a glass case, wearing in his cavalry blanket and saddle. The case used to have a brass plaque: " Sole survivor of the Battle of Little Big Horn." It was removed in the 1970s at the request of local tribes. Comanche, Little Bighorn Survivor: Address: 1345 Jayhawk Blvd., Lawrence, KS Directions: On University Of Kansas campus in Dyche Museum Of Natural History, 14th St. and Jayhawk Blvd. Hours: M-S 9 am -5 pm, Su 12-5 pm Phone: 785-864-4173
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 25, 2010 15:46:17 GMT -5
Thanks Paul; very interesting. I don't know where I got the idea he was at West Point.
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Post by Chuck T on Jun 25, 2010 16:16:24 GMT -5
Allen: The Benteen big village come quick message is at West Point. The last time I was there I don't remember seeing anything else about the battle or Custer. I guess they figured they could only give so much space to the lowest ranking academicly cadet in his class. Paul has already given yo the Keogh's horse G-2. 5 mil for a guidon seems a little steep. I am trying to collect all the nickels , dimes and quarters thet feel out of my pocket and under the sofa cushions to see if I can afford to bid.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 25, 2010 16:23:13 GMT -5
Good luck with the bidding, Chuck!
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Post by Chuck T on Jun 25, 2010 18:47:25 GMT -5
So far I found thirty five cents, three unused wooden matches and a key to the back door that must have fallen out of my pocket a week ago.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Jun 26, 2010 7:26:32 GMT -5
I have a couple of pens needing refills that I can throw into the fund, if it will help.
Paul
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Post by bobdurham on Aug 18, 2010 12:04:33 GMT -5
I'm just finishing Gray's The Centennial Campaign. It's a great book, with a lot of informative tables and graphs. This is the first time I've seen a book that covers the whole campaign. I was a little surprised at Gray's judgment of Gen. Crook's contribution. I've read Crook's autobiography, one of Bourke's books and accounts of the Rosebud battle. Except for what Crook did in the aftermath of that (basically nothing), I had always thought he was one of the better Indian fighters.
Maybe the warrior ethos of the plains tribes were so much different than his experience on the Pacific coast and in Arizona that he had no idea on how to handle them. Seems he finally just gave up on trying.
My next book is Nathaniel Philbrick's The Last Stand.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 18, 2010 12:38:41 GMT -5
Bob,
I agree with you on Gray; I think it is essential. His later book, "Custer's Last Campaign," goes into far more detail on LBH, but is very far down in the weeds and definitely not for everyone.
Herb has posted some correctives here on the negative views of Crook and also Gibbon, who is skewered in one of the recent books (can't recall which one now). Crook seems to have gotten a lot of mileage out his Indians scouts, who were instrumental in his successes, including the capture of Geronimo.
I think you will enjoy Philbrick's book; it's a popular, well-written account, similar to Donovan's, and his case is well argued.
Allen
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Post by Herb on Aug 18, 2010 13:14:52 GMT -5
I'm extremely critical of Crook in the 76 campaign, and I think his performance is highly overrated - while I know the general outlines of his campaigns against the Apache it never drew my interests like the campaigns against the mounted warriors of the plains. Crook's Civil War career never impressed me. I feel like his Indian War "fame" was owed mor to his press/publicity savy and less to true Indian fighting skills - much like Custer?
Most of the criticism of Gibbon, imo, is on track, but I think is taken out of context of his larger army career. Gibbon did not perfrom up to his usual standards in 76. So to me the interesting question is why was Gibbon's performance unusual for him?
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Post by Chuck T on Aug 18, 2010 17:27:26 GMT -5
Herb: Gibbon was, from what I understand, quite ill during the early part of the 76 Campaign. Crook was much more on his game in Arizona. Miles is the guy to watch post LBH. "Yellowstone Campaign" by Jerome A. Greene (University of Nebraska Press is a great book - highly recommended. I have never seen it on sale anywhere other than at LHB Battlefield though.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 18, 2010 17:32:48 GMT -5
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