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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 25, 2010 16:03:45 GMT -5
That's very interesting stuff, Herb re: the Comanche. I may pick that book up after all as the parts I browsed seemed very interesting and well written. I had not associated the Indian wars in the west to Civil War outcomes and Reconstruction politics, but it makes sense. Of course, Custer is a bit like Crockett in being made a media celebrity, so the public at large was bound to recognize his name more than the others and react accordingly, with shock and disbelief, upon hearing of his demise. Custer also had come to be regarded as "the best Indian fighter" in the Army, which I think was a gross exaggeration. I'm not sure he fought many Indians at all, other than at Washita, and I'm still uncertain what to make of that battle. Maybe I'm off here, but didn't Crooke have more experience by the time of LBH?
I also do not understand Miles' treatment and relative obscurity, but I was not aware of the later events you mentioned. If you saw the HBO movie "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee," you'll see him portrayed in an unflattering light as an in-your-face bully toward Indians, but that's not the impression I get of him. Also, he ran down Chief Joseph's Nez Perce when they had nearly pulled off their incredible march toward their homeland and/or possibly the Canadian border. In most accounts he is cast as the bad guy who stopped them, although I understand he was very reasonable toward them and simply did what he'd been sent out to do.
Maybe there is a difference between those officers who saw their job as bringing the Indians in to reservations, with as little fighting as possible, and someone like Custer, who really did seem to want glory for himself and enjoyed both the hunt and battle. In that sense, ironically, he may have been more like the warriors than his fellow officers.
Allen
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Post by Chuck T on Aug 25, 2010 18:40:11 GMT -5
Allen: About Miles. Check out Ivan Musicant's Empire By Default. He made a lot of enemies with long memories on the way up.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 25, 2010 20:36:57 GMT -5
Allen: About Miles. Check out Ivan Musicant's Empire By Default. He made a lot of enemies with long memories on the way up. Well, that'll do it every time!
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Post by garyzaboly on Aug 28, 2010 14:08:30 GMT -5
There's a very good novel about the Fort Phil Kearney/Red Cloud episode called CARRINGTON, by Michael Straight, published in 1960. First read it as a library book way back when I was about 13, and two years ago I finally nabbed a good copy on Ebay. Adult, well-written, and it gives a better picture of life at the fort than I ever read in any nonfiction. Fetterman, of course, is there, but book's main concern is the personal conflicts afflicting Henry Carrington, who is depicted as being somewhat sympathetic to the Indians.
I also recall that Robert Fuller played Fetterman in MASSACRE AT FORT PHIL KEARNEY, on Bob Hope's CHRYSLER THEATER, back in the mid-60s. Richard Egan played Carrington, and Carroll O'Connor played Captain Ten Eyck ("Stifle, Fetterman!"?). . It wasn't bad, according to my memory.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 31, 2010 9:52:55 GMT -5
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Post by Chuck T on Aug 31, 2010 10:39:55 GMT -5
Allen: After finishing his book I had a great deal of respect for Jim Donovan. After reading this article I have even more. Pack your snakebite kit.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 31, 2010 11:00:21 GMT -5
Counting down, Chuck; departing very early Saturday a.m.; will be at LBH on 9/11, ironically!
Allen
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Post by Allen Wiener on Sept 12, 2010 8:55:49 GMT -5
I've had very limited internet access lately, but spent an incredible day at LBH yesterday in weather that can only be described as PERFECT! I have to go through my notes and photos, but as a quick summary, here are some thoughts:
The biggest overall impression was how important it is to walk the ground in order to understand what happened there. Photos, maps and all the books just don't do that for you.... Second, Reno Hill was enormous compared to my idea of what it looked like. Other visitors said the same; we had thought of it as a small circle on top of a hill; it was a very tough place to defend and much, much larger than I thought. Also, I'd love to be able to get close to the river and see the Indian/village perspective more. As it is, you can barely see the river. However, what we see is pretty much what Custer saw, so there is that factor. You are pretty much up on the ridge between Reno Hill and Last Stand Hill. There is much to see, but trying to trace something like Thompson's "Walkabout" is impossible.
Allen
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Post by Allen Wiener on Sept 12, 2010 8:57:44 GMT -5
P.S. If anyone is interested in coming up for the June 25 anniversary stuff, I'd suggest reserving rooms NOW. There are not many places to stay and only one really good B&B, where we are (the Kendrick House). It's already fully booked for next June as she has repeat guests year after year.
Allen
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Post by Chuck T on Sept 12, 2010 9:31:42 GMT -5
Well, as you are not writing from the local hospital I assume that you did not have a close encounter with Jake. Where did you stay, in Crow Agency or Hardin?
I thought you would be impressed by the size of the place. Read somewhere that the total battle area is larger than Gettysburg. Don't know about that but it is pretty close. The only Indian perspective you can get is from along the service road from Garryowen Post Office to where it turns off near the park entrance. Even then the grove of trees and the bluffs obstruct your view. Allen even if you could get into the Thompson area the river has changed course somewhat over the years, and I am not sure how much value it would be.
The Reno area is dominated by Sharpshooter Ridge, making his piece of ground very hard to defend. However even in that bowl Reno and Benteen were at least able to tie in their companies for all-around defense, something that Custer could not do on Battle Ridge, him being strung out for over a mile.
How tall was the grass and did you get down on your knees and see for yourself the restricted field of fire. That is something that impressed me on my visit. More than anything I want to hear your views on Troop C's attack on Greasy Grass Ridge and how that influences you total (Custer) battle timeline.
Glad you enjoyed the trip.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Sept 13, 2010 8:56:03 GMT -5
Chuck - internet service has been spotty on the trip, but very briefly, the grass is no longer as high or thick as it was prior to the 1983 fire, although it is high enough to see how the warriors could have easily concealed themselves, especially on Reno Hill, where some of the perimeter drops off very sharply (look at the ravines where the water carriers risked their necks as an example, and that whole section of the hill). It is hard to actually make out some details that sound so prominent in the books, like Deep Coulee, which is bisected by the road and doesn't actually appear to go all the way to the river (at least not now). Similarly, it is hard to make out the area where Troop C made its charge, although it is clear where Calhoun Hill is and Greasy Grass Ridge. Some of the Rangers are more skeptical than the authors we've read about some details, like where Lame White Man's charge took place; why Custer didn't just cross at Medicine Tail Ford, etc. They emphasize that he would not have been able to find a crossing for a while after leaving Reno, but that he could have crossed there, opened a charge into the camp, etc., etc. A lot seems like guesstimating or educated guessing about details of the battle. Biggest unanswerable remains "What was Custer Thinking?" He really does seem to have taken a very big gamble in unfamiliar terrain at an objective he did not see clearly until after he'd ordered Reno's attack, and then tried to adapt on the fly.
I did not get a chance to drive down to the Garryowen Post Office, although I had planned to do so, but we were there for 7 hours and I thought I'd give my poor wife a break. I'd love to go back and explore some more; it was a wonderful day!
Allen
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Post by Chuck T on Sept 13, 2010 9:50:57 GMT -5
Anytime you are ready for an encore let me know. It is a long full days drive from my place. If you would wish to fly into Denver, I could pick you up and a hunting we would go.
Did you pick up any interesting but lesser know books while you were there?
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Post by Allen Wiener on Sept 13, 2010 10:23:15 GMT -5
I was actually surprised by the number of books I already own, although that place is amazing; virtually ever book on Custer is there. I did pick up the "official" NPS book, which I believe Utley wrote or co-wrote.
That's a very kind offer, Chuck. I did fly into Denver this time, but had a connecting flight to Billings, which cut travel time. I'd be up for another trip at some point, finances permitting, and think a swing by Rosebud and maybe Fetterman sites included, with at least one full day at LBH.
Allen
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Post by Chuck T on Sept 13, 2010 13:04:27 GMT -5
Allen: Flying into Denver and driving allows you to also see Fort Fetterman (along with the infamous Hog Ranch), the ruins of Fort Reno, the Fetterman/Fort Phil Kearny site, and a rather interesting Fort Mackenzie. The latter is now a VA Hospital, and it is beautifully preserved in that it allows one to see what these late frontier posts were all about. I25 and to the north I90 generally follows the Bozeman Trail so everything of interest save Rosebud is only a few minutes at most off the highway.
With regards to the Fetterman site. If you think that the terrain is a factor at LBH, wait until you see this one. It is hard to believe that someone could get themselves into a bigger jam. Strange thing is that it is only somewhere between one and two miles from FPK.
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