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Post by billchemerka on Dec 19, 2008 9:34:58 GMT -5
Due to the inexact extant documentation, it is difficult to assess exactly what elements of Romero's troops (or Duque's, for that matter) were at the aforementioned place that Mark mentioned (This would further imply that the cannon at the NE of the cattle corral did do sufficient damage to cause Romero to shift his attack further north.) An interesting aspect of the "shift" was, of course, the mass convergence on the North Wall, a martial incrassation that will be depicted (along with an element of the breakout) in the forthcoming History Channel "Alamo" program.
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Post by stuart on Dec 19, 2008 11:21:46 GMT -5
So, just to get my head around this...
The orders for the assault had Duque coming in from the north against the north wall and Romero coming from the east or north east against the long barrack extension.
However both the fact that the innundations extended as far north (or more) as a line parallel with the north wall, and the recent excavations, suggest that instead of turning south into the area between the water and the east wall, once he'd rounded the innundation, Romero and his men actually piled into the main assault against the north wall.
Is this what's now being suggested?
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Post by Allen Wiener on Dec 19, 2008 12:28:14 GMT -5
Somewhere in the cobwebs of my mind I seem to recall descriptions of the battle that matched this scenario to some degree. Cos was sent against the northern end of the west wall; Duque against the north and Romero the northern end of the east wall (the Long Barrack extension). Through some combination of Texian fire, the water obstacles, and a degree of confusion, all three elements ended up bunching together at the north wall or very close to it. Then, by force of numbers concentrated at that point, the Mexicans found their way over the wall, either using the reinforcement timbers and/or each other's backs. This also suggests that the idea of Texian cannon continuing to do some damage to Mexican troops backed up at the north who were still far enough from the wall to be targets. Whatever went down, Santa Anna saw fit to send in the reserves, which leads me to believe that either the Texians were putting up more resistence than expected, or Santa Anna was getting reports that suggested that.
Does anyone think there was a chance of the attack breaking down if the reserves had not been sent in? And, again, let's not forget Morales at the south, who may have already gained entrance to the fort.
AW
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Post by marklemon on Dec 19, 2008 15:14:36 GMT -5
The langrage and cannister shot artifacts were found only about 50-60 feet in front of, or to the north east of, the corner gun position (NE Courtyard). As can be seen in Labastida, there is relatively little "squeeze room" in front of that gun for troops to funnel through. But that is what the archeology shows. Allowing for some margin or error in his plat, there still was probably not more than70-80 feet of room between the corner salient, and the beginning of the marshy area. My guess is that, instead of coming in from the NE, and clearing the northern end of the marshy area, Romero came in more directly from due east, maybe even (very) slightly SE, towards the west. As they neared the church battery, they were forced by its fire more to the north, and then were channeled into the "funnel" between the NE Courtyard gun, and the marshy area. As they streamed towards the NE gun, its fire caused them to flow northwards, where, in the inner angle formed by the extension, and the north wall of the NE courtyard, they finally were able to have a respite from direct artillery fire, and gain a purchase over the low wall there, as well as at other points to the north along the extension wall. I really can't see them entering from the north, and running all the way down the extension wall, then due east and the area in front of the SE gun. It makes more sense for them having to move past the gun to the NW, than to move past the gun to the SE. In the former case, they are moving towards their objective, and an area of lower walls, and in the latter, away from their objective and towards an area with high walls, and artillery.
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Post by stuart on Dec 19, 2008 17:43:41 GMT -5
Right...
The impression I had initially was that we were talking about further north. So what you're saying is that they actually came due east and along the northern wall of the compound, before bursting into it?
If so, returning to the main theme of the thread, that makes for a clearer understanding of the main breakouts as it would suggest that those falling back from the north wall never got beyond the barracks, while those intercepted by Sesma were directly fleeing from the compound and cloister area - which will probably have been a lot easier than trying to get into the back of the long barracks.
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Post by marklemon on Dec 19, 2008 20:02:08 GMT -5
Stuart, I presume you wrote a typo in your last post, and really meant to say :"So what you're saying is that they actually came due WEST (not east)and along the northern wall of the compound, before bursting into it?"
If so, you are correct. I am saying that the evidence shows that Romero's troops advanced from due east somewhere opposite the church or church-sacristy, and were forced to the northwest, away from the artillery in the church. Going north, they naturally would have funneled into the dry ground between the marshy area, and the east wall of the horse corral, and moving more to the north, presumably to where the walls were lower, they came upon the cannon emplaced there. Here, we have proof that they were fired upon, and more than once. Presumably, this caused them to continue on into the interior angle formed by the north end of the long barracks, and the north wall of the cattle pen. Here, they would have been safe from artillery fire, and would have had a four foot wall in front of them. I am just theorizing that a portion of Romero's men could have penetrated the north courtyard near this angle, and, once inside, moved down in front of the eastern face of the long barracks would have effectively cut off any Texians posted along the north and east walls of the cattle pen. I am also theorizing that many of these men, cut off and faced with fighting to the death in the pen, or breaking out, then chose to go over the wall. Mark
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Post by texast on Dec 20, 2008 2:08:03 GMT -5
Mark, I agree with this assesment also and Remember reading the same somewhere that the advance started but was repelled and forced into the direction you mention due to the cannon fire, etc. It does make more sense and one reason I don't think there was a planned or mass Exodus as much as once they were in the situation they rapidly fell into, they had no other choice but to go over or out through the walls or spaces as they became available. Once over or outside the walls probably in areas where the Mexicans had abandoned in the first place due to the cannon fire originally they probably managed to gather into a small group and then found themselves trapped again eventually which would help explain better to me at least the area of the funeral pyre location near the orchard.
I'm not sure I have seen the actual articles/findings you all are discussing though of that excavation. I would love to review it though.
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Post by stuart on Dec 20, 2008 2:23:15 GMT -5
Stuart, I presume you wrote a typo in your last post, and really meant to say :"So what you're saying is that they actually came due WEST (not east)and along the northern wall of the compound, before bursting into it?" Mark Yeah, a typo, or rather an unfortunate tendency to confuse the two like some people have trouble with right and left. That was certainly what I meant to write.
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Post by Herb on Dec 20, 2008 11:58:34 GMT -5
Stuart, I presume you wrote a typo in your last post, and really meant to say :"So what you're saying is that they actually came due WEST (not east)and along the northern wall of the compound, before bursting into it?" If so, you are correct. I am saying that the evidence shows that Romero's troops advanced from due east somewhere opposite the church or church-sacristy, and were forced to the northwest, away from the artillery in the church. Going north, they naturally would have funneled into the dry ground between the marshy area, and the east wall of the horse corral, and moving more to the north, presumably to where the walls were lower, they came upon the cannon emplaced there. Here, we have proof that they were fired upon, and more than once. Presumably, this caused them to continue on into the interior angle formed by the north end of the long barracks, and the north wall of the cattle pen. Here, they would have been safe from artillery fire, and would have had a four foot wall in front of them. I am just theorizing that a portion of Romero's men could have penetrated the north courtyard near this angle, and, once inside, moved down in front of the eastern face of the long barracks would have effectively cut off any Texians posted along the north and east walls of the cattle pen. I am also theorizing that many of these men, cut off and faced with fighting to the death in the pen, or breaking out, then chose to go over the wall. Mark Mark, I'm still trying to get a handle on this. The way I understand you, is that the "dig" was NE of what would have been the cannon position in the NE of the cattle corral. If that is correct, presumably it would have been across modern Houston Street from todays compound and somewhere between the History Shop and the Fire Station? If that is true, what evidence is leading you to conclude that Romero's men came from the south? Not arguing, just trying to understand the evidence and reasoning! As far as your conclusion, about how the defenders exited the cattle corral, thats the same conclusion (though different reasons) that I reached on the other topic, after studying your model (a totally inadequate description of your work).
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Post by marklemon on Dec 20, 2008 12:15:37 GMT -5
Mark, I agree with this assesment also and Remember reading the same somewhere that the advance started but was repelled and forced into the direction you mention due to the cannon fire, etc. It does make more sense and one reason I don't think there was a planned or mass Exodus as much as once they were in the situation they rapidly fell into, they had no other choice but to go over or out through the walls or spaces as they became available. Once over or outside the walls probably in areas where the Mexicans had abandoned in the first place due to the cannon fire originally they probably managed to gather into a small group and then found themselves trapped again eventually which would help explain better to me at least the area of the funeral pyre location near the orchard. I'm not sure I have seen the actual articles/findings you all are discussing though of that excavation. I would love to review it though. texast, That's the most unfortunate thing of all concerning this dig. It was conducted directly underneath the History Shop building across the street(diagonally) from where the north Houston St Alamo gate now is. This was done by the owner of the shop, and covered a relatively small area of ground, maybe 400 square feet at most. But in this one dig were unearthed some of the most significant finds recently unearthed, in that it tells us about a key part of the battle that we only had the most obscure references to in the past. These findings are not published anywhere, and that's the shame. I was one of the few persons allowed to observe the excavations, and I took in all that I could about what various items were found where. But the underlying fact is that definite signs of artillery fire coming from the NE courtyard salient gun were found, and that these signs were found at close range to the gun, say,20-30 yards away. Mark
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Post by marklemon on Dec 20, 2008 12:33:12 GMT -5
Stuart, I presume you wrote a typo in your last post, and really meant to say :"So what you're saying is that they actually came due WEST (not east)and along the northern wall of the compound, before bursting into it?" If so, you are correct. I am saying that the evidence shows that Romero's troops advanced from due east somewhere opposite the church or church-sacristy, and were forced to the northwest, away from the artillery in the church. Going north, they naturally would have funneled into the dry ground between the marshy area, and the east wall of the horse corral, and moving more to the north, presumably to where the walls were lower, they came upon the cannon emplaced there. Here, we have proof that they were fired upon, and more than once. Presumably, this caused them to continue on into the interior angle formed by the north end of the long barracks, and the north wall of the cattle pen. Here, they would have been safe from artillery fire, and would have had a four foot wall in front of them. I am just theorizing that a portion of Romero's men could have penetrated the north courtyard near this angle, and, once inside, moved down in front of the eastern face of the long barracks would have effectively cut off any Texians posted along the north and east walls of the cattle pen. I am also theorizing that many of these men, cut off and faced with fighting to the death in the pen, or breaking out, then chose to go over the wall. Mark Mark, I'm still trying to get a handle on this. The way I understand you, is that the "dig" was NE of what would have been the cannon position in the NE of the cattle corral. If that is correct, presumably it would have been across modern Houston Street from todays compound and somewhere between the History Shop and the Fire Station? If that is true, what evidence is leading you to conclude that Romero's men came from the south? Not arguing, just trying to understand the evidence and reasoning! As far as your conclusion, about how the defenders exited the cattle corral, thats the same conclusion (though different reasons) that I reached on the other topic, after studying your model (a totally inadequate description of your work). Herb, The northeast cattle pen gun position was only a few yards away from where the Houston Street Alamo gate now is. If you stand in that gate, and look to the northeast, look directly at the History Shop, as underneath the floor of that building is where the dig was. Looking at the fire station is looking too far away. I'm not saying that Romero's men came from the south. I'm theorizing that they came from due east, or maybe even a tad bit south of due east. The reason is that they were assigned to attack the eastern front of the fort, not the north end, or the south end of it. there is no evidence of that, as far as I know. Another reason is that from the archaeological evidence I saw, it was clear that the Mexicans came relatively close by the NE salient of the NE cattle pen. If we are to believe LaBastida, and he has shown himself to be reasonably accurate so far, the heavily flooded areas to the NE of the Alamo, not to mention the fire from the church battery, would have channeled Romero's forces from moving due west, to moving more North West, straight into the "funnel" created by the flooded area and the east side of the horse corral. They could not scale the horse corral wall as it was too high. Moving more to the north, they may have tried to force the eastern cattle pen wall, as it was somewhat lower, but the evidence shows that they passed in front of, or to the NE of, the NE cattle pen salient gun, where they were fired upon by that gun. At this point it is less clear, but as we know that Romero is reported to have taken the NE courtyard area, I can only presume that his men moved past the NE gun, then due west straight to the eastern wall of the long barracks extension. At this point, some of them could have easily scaled the 4 foot cattle pen wall near the NE outer wall of the long barracks, as more of them moved up and along the outer face of the extension wall, eventually overlapping the NE end of the extension, and mingling with the troops at the north wall.
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Post by stuart on Dec 20, 2008 12:41:33 GMT -5
Without arguing with a word of that, can I just make the small point that for a Mexican soldier's point of view, scaling the horse corral/cloister wall might be out of the question, but from a Texian point of view dropping over it to escape aint such a big deal at all.
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Post by Herb on Dec 20, 2008 12:57:29 GMT -5
OK, got it, thanks.
Though, I don't see how the evidence rules out Romero attacking from the NE alongside the western bank of the acequia. My concern here is twofold, one is what Jake Ivey was telling us last March about the depth and width of the "unflooded" acequia. Even before the flooding it would have been a significant obstacle - unless Romero attacked along the road (you show crossing the acequia) (vic Houston Street ?) in a tight column formation.
The other concern is looking at the artwork of the back of the Church/Sacristy after the battle it shows an extremely marshy area presumably it would have been the same in 1836. It would seem to me an attack aimed this far south, if driven off by the church battery would probably not move through this ground to the north - though if they did - I fully agree with your assessment of the Horse Corral Walls. But, I cannot understand why they would not attack the eastern face of the Cattle Corral, and instead continue moving north from under the cannon, into the engagment area/range of the NE cannon.
I don't understand the exact location of the road/trail, nor its width, that crossed the acequia, but it would seem to me, if I understood Jake Ivey correctly to the dimensions of the acequia, that an attack from the East would have had to use this road/trail. Either that or that the attack came from the NE alongside the west bank of the flooded area.
Not seriously debating, yet, just trying to grasp everything!
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Post by Herb on Dec 20, 2008 13:02:19 GMT -5
BTW, do you know if any consideration is being given to at least publish the findings in the Alamo Journal , or is this going to be part of Rick Range's book? It seems to be too significant, not to get some public mention!
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Post by marklemon on Dec 20, 2008 14:45:30 GMT -5
OK, got it, thanks. Though, I don't see how the evidence rules out Romero attacking from the NE alongside the western bank of the acequia. My concern here is twofold, one is what Jake Ivey was telling us last March about the depth and width of the "unflooded" acequia. Even before the flooding it would have been a significant obstacle - unless Romero attacked along the road (you show crossing the acequia) (vic Houston Street ?) in a tight column formation. The other concern is looking at the artwork of the back of the Church/Sacristy after the battle it shows an extremely marshy area presumably it would have been the same in 1836. It would seem to me an attack aimed this far south, if driven off by the church battery would probably not move through this ground to the north - though if they did - I fully agree with your assessment of the Horse Corral Walls. But, I cannot understand why they would not attack the eastern face of the Cattle Corral, and instead continue moving north from under the cannon, into the engagment area/range of the NE cannon. I don't understand the exact location of the road/trail, nor its width, that crossed the acequia, but it would seem to me, if I understood Jake Ivey correctly to the dimensions of the acequia, that an attack from the East would have had to use this road/trail. Either that or that the attack came from the NE alongside the west bank of the flooded area. Not seriously debating, yet, just trying to grasp everything! Herb, If Romero attacked from the NE, he'd still have to cross the acequia, and in an area where there likely were no bridges. In addition, he'd have to make his approach across ground that was swept (theoretically) by the three-gun battery at the north wall, as well as the NE cattle pen gun, and even at least one gun from the chuch battery. But most importantly, if he had come down from the NE, his troops would likely never have been out to the NE of the cattle pen gun. They most likely would have concentrated their attack on the 112 foot-long northern wall of the cattle pen. There would have been little reason or incentive for them to wander dangerously out directly in front (to the NE) of that gun. That seems to me to be too far out to the east for them to have moved. I believe that the extent of the water-soaked areas was not well-known to the Mexicans (ie: how deep, etc) and it is possible that at least at first, a portion of them strode straight into this area, and then, being bogged down, bunched together into the "funnel" between the sacristy of the church, and the marshy area (see LaBastida). This would have brought the main force of them up northward towards the cattle pen. You are correct, in that they may have, in fact, concentrated their force at the eastern cattle pen wall, but this certainly would also have meant that some of them would have moved into the "dig" area where they were fired at by the gun. All I know is that a force of Mexicans most certainly moved in front of the cattle pen gun, out to the NE, at a distance of about 20-30 yards, and having them come from the east, and funneling into the dry ground and continuing to the NW, makes more sense than having them come from the NE, where moving out to the NE of the cattle pen gun makes little sense. I am going to put the findings on paper, either in my next book, or in some other form. Of course it will not be scientific, as the dig was not done professionally, but the artifacts are the real deal and were found in a specific location which tells us a lot. Mark
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