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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 16, 2011 19:53:58 GMT -5
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Post by loucapitano on Jun 24, 2011 16:55:07 GMT -5
Thanks Allen - you are the ultimate source of all things... I suppose most historians who consider the letter to be authentic have surmised that it may have given Travis more hope that relief was a day or two away. I can't help but think Williamson's statement about the 60 men from Gonzales already en route was proably made in good faith, even though only 32 actually entered the Alamo. What happened to the other 28 we may never know. There would be physical evidence if they were captured or killed. Perhaps they thought the relief mission hopeless or simply went home to tend to their families. Then again, Williamsen may have seen the volunteer group leave, but didn't count them and assumed there were 60 when there were only 32. Interesting stuff that certainly helps further immortalize the 32 from Gonzales.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jul 26, 2011 21:23:39 GMT -5
While reading through some old newspaers, I stumbled across another sand bar knife description by a supposed friend of James Bowie in the Sept.9,1888 Atlanta Constitution. California pioneer James E. Parker told the San Francisco Call that Bowie got the idea for his huge knife while on a trip to Galveston, which is another possible Spanish or Lafitte connection. He later had a blacksmith forge the blade out of long piece of metal. The blade was ground down to a sharp edge with a heavy back and given a horn handle. James Parker said that Jim Bowie wanted a large knife for utility purposes around his campfire (like a hatchet for chopping wood, etc.) in the later 1820s as well as a defensive weapon, but Parker may have observed a later design.
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Post by loucapitano on Jul 27, 2011 18:39:38 GMT -5
I guess the knife Jim Bowie used will always have its practical utilitarian side, but his famous portrait seems to show his definit appreciation of its power and lethality. He seems to look you in the eye while clutching the handle like he's ready and willing to take action. (Of course, I'm assuming the portrait was made prior to the Alamo) I don't think the actual history of the blade really matters. All famous men and women that grow to mythological and legendary fame need a prop of some kind to focus the people's attention. For Crockett, it was Ole Betsy. For Travis, the line in the sand. For Bowie, the big knife. Since we may never know the actual truth behind all three, the legend will continue and grow. Personally I'm glad for it.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jul 31, 2011 17:45:14 GMT -5
I guess the knife Jim Bowie used will always have its practical utilitarian side, but his famous portrait seems to show his definit appreciation of its power and lethality. He seems to look you in the eye while clutching the handle like he's ready and willing to take action. (Of course, I'm assuming the portrait was made prior to the Alamo) The noted painting of Bowie was reportedly rendered prior to Bowie's death, but I don't believe he is holding the handle of a knife. It looks more like the hilt of some kind of European-inspired sword. Well, the Bowie knife's history apparently matters to some since people have been arguing over it for a hundred or so years. The big difference with the Crockett and Travis props you mention is that there is a possibility that Bowie took his famed knife to the Alamo and died with it, thus having a real connection to the shrine. I think the tales of Travis drawing the line in the sand (which I believe originated with the "35 battle at Bexar) and Crockett bringing his favorite rifle 'Ol Betsy to Texas have been pretty well refuted by others. If Bowie had his knife on his death bed it would certainly be the number one Alamo relic. However, I sincerely doubt it will ever be discovered or recognized as his knife. People just didn't value utilitarian items the way we do now. They usually didn't place their names on them and almost never describe them in letters. Weapons and tools were usually created for one purpose and that was to do a job, not to serve as signet items. I imagine Jim Bowie's horn-handled, file blade is probably buried somewhere between Bexar and San Jacinto or chopping cane down in Old Mexico.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Oct 24, 2011 15:09:36 GMT -5
I'm not sure what Mr. Clifft was doing during the main battles of the Texas Revolution, but on Jun. 4, 1836 at New Year's or Mill Creek, he joined Captain Henry Reed's company of Augustine Volunteers. He later served on the 2nd Fayette County Grand Jury and was apparently living on Cummin's Creek in Fayette County as late as 1850. It's a little odd that there doesn't seem to be any history or legend of the Bowie Knife's creator living in this county or even Texas. Travis' diary entry for Monday, November 11, 1833, begins, "Jesse Clift vs A. McElroy -- wrote petition &c for mandate..." Travis' entry for Monday, April 7, 1834, includes: "wrote petition for Jesse Clift in case of Welch use of Tennille vs. him -- Alcalde will not grant it -- charged $5.00..." As you probably know, Mill Creek flows into the Brazos River about three miles above San Felipe de Austin. The Cummins Mill was on Mill Creek about 9 miles above San Felipe (probably Cummins Creek is at that point) and that was the home of John Cummins and his sister Rebecca, with whom Travis was deeply involved.
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johnk
Full Member
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Post by johnk on Nov 7, 2011 11:49:49 GMT -5
If push came to shove my honest opinion would be that the original Bowie Knife looked like the upper one in this photo much more so then the Musso Bowie which is generally thought to be Jim Bowies knife. Attachments:
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Post by sloanrodgers on Nov 7, 2011 22:09:12 GMT -5
Travis' diary entry for Monday, November 11, 1833, begins, "Jesse Clift vs A. McElroy -- wrote petition &c for mandate..." Travis' entry for Monday, April 7, 1834, includes: "wrote petition for Jesse Clift in case of Welch use of Tennille vs. him -- Alcalde will not grant it -- charged $5.00..." As you probably know, Mill Creek flows into the Brazos River about three miles above San Felipe de Austin. The Cummins Mill was on Mill Creek about 9 miles above San Felipe (probably Cummins Creek is at that point) and that was the home of John Cummins and his sister Rebecca, with whom Travis was deeply involved. Sorry, I didn't see this before as I started researching other stuff. That's some interesting information. I wonder if Jesse Clifft had a iron forge set up near Cummins' Mill and whether he still produced knives at this point in his life.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Nov 7, 2011 22:28:40 GMT -5
If push came to shove my honest opinion would be that the original Bowie Knife looked like the upper one in this photo much more so then the Musso Bowie which is generally thought to be Jim Bowies knife. I've seen these new file blades before and they look well-made even though the photo is small. I've been finding numerous references to Bowie's Sand Bar Knife being forged from an old file for several months and think you're probably on target with your opinion. The top knife looks more like a big/ large butcher knife from the 1827 accounts than the guarded classic Bowies that came later. I won't say anymore because I don't wanna chop off someone's toes. *spelling correction
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Post by sloanrodgers on Nov 13, 2011 23:52:15 GMT -5
www.historicarkansas.org/pdf/RevisitingBlackQuestion.pdfBeware of making absolute declarations in your historical writing. On page 9 of Mr.Worthen's wonderful Bowie Knife article (above), he states that in 1835 Marks and Rees of Cincinnati, Ohio were the first cutlers to advertise Bowie knives in a newspaper. I thought this date was a mite late and easily found something called a lock-spring Bowie knife being advertised in the Dec. 31, 1830 Daily National Intelligencer in Washington D.C. and later newspapers by a fellow named Lewis Johnson. It stands to reason that there might have been even earlier Bowie knife newspaper ads by cutlers in England or elsewhere, but I haven't done an extensive search.
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johnk
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Post by johnk on Jan 20, 2013 8:58:22 GMT -5
Wow.......Wealth of info I need to digest.........Thanks
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johnk
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Posts: 67
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Post by johnk on Jan 20, 2013 9:05:42 GMT -5
Would I be right in saying that the readily identified Bowie clip point blade came about due to demand in USA from Sheffield in UK to satisfy peoples idea of what Bowie Knife was ?And therefore a huge export market for Sheffied UK..........(Im English)
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johnk
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Post by johnk on Jan 21, 2013 8:44:01 GMT -5
Many thanks RangerRod for posting the excerpt.
Two numbers jump out at me upon the initial read. The first being the "twenty-two bloody encounters" and the second being the "seventeen and one-half inches in the blade." Both reside comfortably within the realm of incredulity. For some reason I am reminded of the fish story, the size of the piscis is relative to the number of years that have passed. Fair Point
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jan 21, 2013 19:04:33 GMT -5
Or sharp.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 22, 2013 11:42:09 GMT -5
...or clip.
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