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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 1, 2010 10:32:46 GMT -5
I haven't heard these recordings, but some of the imbalance might be due to micing techniques. If a mic is in the wrong place, the engineer is hosed. Jim
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 1, 2010 11:05:20 GMT -5
I haven't heard these recordings, but some of the imbalance might be due to micing techniques. If a mic is in the wrong place, the engineer is hosed. Jim Well, and this is a strong possibility for the recording sessions for the chorus in England. Interestingly, Fitzpatrick rightfully brags about the care they took selecting the studio and assembling the tech. for the orchestra in Prague, but says nothing about any such finesse for the choir recording the follwing month at Angel Studios in London. It was a different recording engineer too. I have heard other choirs recorded there, and they sounded like mush too. It is to cry.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 12, 2010 23:40:31 GMT -5
I got on a roll tonight with the Tiomkin redo -- sort of a Farkisian level of anality ;D. I put the Hong Kong DVD of The Alamo on the DVD player and the Nic Raine CD on my sitman (my version of a walkman) so I could listen to music cues sort of in synch. with the scenes in the 192-minute version of the movie. Fascinating, and very entertaining.
Some cues that I thought were directed with a slower tempo actually time out and keep pace with their synchronized counterpart. The difference seems to be in what a conductor does at the podium, not what he does from his instructions in the written score. Nic Raine is, for the most part, conducting the score as written. The differences are largely what Tiomkin would do with the orchestra to impassion the movie viewer within a particular scene. You can have twenty measures in the written score and perform them in 1 minute and 30 seconds with a constant tempo, or you can do those same twenty measures in the same overall amount of time, but with tempo increases and decreases along the way -- as long as you still hit the main emphatic points. Tiomkin would take a series of notes that a very metranome oriented conductor like Elmer Bernstein would perform with mathematical precision and just gallop through them to get the viewer's heartbeat going. This could be for action scenes or for romance, as in his lilting musical runs during the lacy Spanish music under the first Flaca scenes -- very hard to duplicate if the conductor isn't actually watching the film as he is conducting. Tiomkin was a master at this and it's all through his scores, making them extremely hard for others to conduct. That said, Nic Raine did an awesome job of capturing Tiomkin's flavor, if not always replicating his romantic era swells and runs.
I'm up to the intermission and headed into the second half.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 13, 2010 1:47:33 GMT -5
Well, I finished the second half and remain thoroughly confused by the "alternate version" of the End Title. All I can figure is that the up-tempo martial march must have been scored for cut scenes of Santa Anna and his officers. As I recall from the script (my copy is at the village), there was dialogue between Santa Anna and the officers. Perhaps some triumphal footage of the officers preceeded the scene where you see the group heading toward the Alamo from Smitty's point-of-view. Once the scene changes to Carlos Arruza and Joan O'Brien, the music fits pretty well through the bugle salute and finale. But boy, that approach sure would have been a mistake IMO. Love it like it is.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 13, 2010 10:22:21 GMT -5
That jumped out at me too, Rich; couldn't figure out where it was supposed to go, but I didn't know about the cut scenes of SA. Definitely a wise moving leaving it out of the film.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 13, 2010 15:26:45 GMT -5
Yeah, the other approach would have rendered the finale mediocre rather than great and classic -- like Taras Bulba.
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Post by Kevin Young on Jun 14, 2010 11:32:34 GMT -5
Yeah, the other approach would have rendered the finale mediocre rather than great and classic -- like Taras Bulba. Agree!
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 14, 2010 20:31:32 GMT -5
Sure. The roadshow version you saw on Broadway in Todd-AO was 192 minutes long -- 202, if you take into consideration the overture, entr'acte and walk-out music. That version only existed as 14 prints in 70 mm. with 6-channel stereophonic sound on interlocked 35 mm. magnetic film and played in 12 theaters domestically and 2 in Europe. The general release version (the only one I saw until the video in 1992) was in 35 mm. and had 4 optical stereo tracks (I think) on the print. It was 161 minutes long and had no overture, intermission or walk-out music. Wisely, the birthday party scene was one of the first things to go -- totally pedestrian directing not saved by the editing (made me cringe too). The long version apparently existed nowhere but on the 70 mm. prints, and all but one of those were physically cut to match the edits on the 70 mm. master. This is why that one print was the only complete version of the film (slipped into private hands illegally, which is all that saved it from oblivion.) Above is my writing. Below is his response. (Just to clarify) ((This is where I get confused. I remember seeing the general release version at the Dixie Drive-In and the Lorraine during the first release and the subsequent re-release. But in around 1970-71 I remember seeing it in 70MM at the Edens and it had the overture, intermission and exit music. But do not remember any of the edited sections of the movie until the "director's cut" was released on VHS.))
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 14, 2010 20:55:44 GMT -5
That jumped out at me too, Rich; couldn't figure out where it was supposed to go, but I didn't know about the cut scenes of SA. Definitely a wise moving leaving it out of the film. From the 6/19/59 revisions. Immediately following the battle sequence: 561 HUGE ANGLE - ON ALAMO COMPOUND The Mexican Army, battered but reformed, is drawn up in parade. A small caravan comes out of the hospital. The Mexican band begins to play. [italics mine. Here is what motivated the martial music] Happy Sam, with a bandaged head, leads a mule. Mrs. Dickinson is on the mule. Continuing in the 7/21/59 revisions: 561 CONTINUED: She holds Lisa in her arms. The small shabby group starts to pass by. 562 LONG SHOT - THE ALAMO Ruined. 563 EXT. SANTA ANNA'S COMMAND POST The good looking young officer who spared Mrs. Dickinson comes up and salutes. OFFICER Sir -- the battle of the Mission is won. Santa Anna takes a long look over the battlefield littered with dead and wreckage. He shrugs. SANTA ANNA A few such victories could lose a war. He sees the Dickinson entourage in the distance. The Officer explains. OFFICER The wife of one of the officers -- and her child and servant -- the only survivors. SANTA ANNA Offer the lady transportation. OFFICER We did, sir -- she refused -- she is very brave, General. Santa Anna looks a moment. Then he barks an order. SANTA ANNA Buglers! Attention! A half dozen buglers snap to attention and raise their bugles. The call sounds out. 564 ANGLE - ON MRS. DICKINSON AND OTHERS As the call sounds over, the troops she is passing snap to attention in groups here and there so that it is almost as if she is reviewing the troops. Over scene our big male chorus is heard singing "The Eyes of Texas". We hold on this for quite a while. 565 ANGLE - ON COTTON As he comes over a rise on his horse down toward Mrs. Dickinson. 566 ANGLE - ON MRS. DICKINSON AND OTHERS The Alamo and Troops in background. Our chorus still coming over. Cotton rides in. He reaches down and swings the colored boy up behind him. Then he takes the lead rope of Mrs. Dickinson's mule and begins to lead them, coming toward Camera. In background is still the Army and the burning Alamo. The chorus is still heard. FADE OUT
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 14, 2010 21:09:12 GMT -5
Interestingly, I find this to be a well written sequence. Grant truly was "a miser with words." Succinct. But that's the script. Once they began to shoot (or edit) the sequence, the true cinema art began to reveal itself and the ending as we know it emerged.
The key words here are "The Mexican band begins to play." This prase in the script generated much effort. First, Tiomkin had to create an appropriate piece for them to play. Second, he had to have it ready during production, not during post-production. Third, it had to be performed and recorded earlier for "play-back" on set so the on-camera band could match the rhythm with theirs (sound was unimportant -- they didn't even have to be musicians, but probably were). Fourth, the recording would then have been laid into one of the edited soundtracks so the music would be from start to finish of the piece. Fifth, it would have been started full volume as the band began to play and then mixed down and under the dialogue whether or not you still saw the band. Sixth, it would have segued into and been replaced by the chorus singing "The Eyes of Texas" building to the Finale.
In my opinion, that would have been the use and technique for using the march theme.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 14, 2010 21:17:35 GMT -5
Notice, I indicated that the script pages changed from the 6/19/59 revision to one added on 7/21/59 which included the dialogue with Santa Anna.
I have the cut pages from the 6/19/59 revision as well, and that is simply as follows:
561 CONTINUED
She holds Lisa in her arms. The small and shabby group start to pass by the smartly drawn-up Mexican troops as if they were passing in review. The Mexican troops all present arms suddenly. The Mexican music blurs and over it swells a big chorus of male voices. They are singing, "The Eyes of Texas Are Upon You."
562 MOVING INSERT - MRS. DICKINSON
Passing the troops.
563 BIG ANGLE
As the three people and mule pass through the Mexican army with the troops at present arms. The voices sell and swell with "The Eyes of Texas" and
FADE OUT
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 14, 2010 21:24:53 GMT -5
Thus it seems that the previous draft of the script (6/19/59) had the band playing martial music, no Santa Anna dialogue and no Cotton (Smitty) at all.
The 7/21/59 revisions kept the band, added the Santa Anna dialogue scene, and added Cotton coming over the hill and leading them away.
The final version (whether when shot or edited) cut the band out completely, cut the dialogue scene, kept Cotton leading them off -- and changed the theme to the Tiomkin original for the Finale instead of "The Eyes of Texas".
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 14, 2010 21:50:06 GMT -5
And lastly, the Master Shooting Schedule sheds some light on what was shot, even though this schedule was updated.
The tag line for the shooting plan for Scenes 561-562-563-564-565-566 says:
"Mrs. Dickinson, Lisa, and Happy Sam leave battered Alamo with Cotton as Santa Anna looks on."
Thus, by the time this schedule was locked in -- based on at least the 7/21/59 revisions -- the dialogue scene (563) between Santa Anna and the Officer had been changed to other material, eliminating the need for shooting at the command tent set.
Also, the location requirements for shooting these six scenes were:
Music - Buglers Dead and wounded. Wrecked equipment. Horses down. Burning Alamo.
No mention of Mexican band, meaning it had been eliminated by this time. The "Music - Buglers" entry is all there is for musicians on the set. Tiomkin might have had to prepare the bugle call in advance for playback, but I doubt it. They would have just done a measure count and determined a tempo to mimic it.
My conclusion: The band playing the piece wasn't cut out. It was never shot, and, depending when the decision was made, Tiomkin might never have had to record the written march.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 20, 2010 10:11:31 GMT -5
I'm clueless on that stuff, but my daughter is a trained singer and knows all about it, so I'll try to run some of the original and the new choral recordings by her when I have a chance to get her take on them. Allen Ooops, sorry I missed this. I'd love to hear her comments when possible.
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Post by scottg on Aug 11, 2010 23:33:13 GMT -5
I still have an old vinyl album from the early 60's, "Tex Beneke Plays Music from The Alamo". It has selected songs from the film covered by Beneke and his orchestra. Most are instrumentals but Beneke covers the vocals on others. It's really pretty good because you get both the instrumental and vocal versions of "Ballad of the Alamo", "Green Leaves of Summer", "Tennessee Babe" and "Here's to the Ladies". This album was my first introduction to the film's score.
How this ties to the new Tiomkin recording is like this ... there's a track on Side 2 of Beneke's album called "Victory March" which always puzzled me because I never heard it in the film nor was it on the vinyl or CD issues of the soundtrack. When I got to the third CD in this set, I finally heard it again. It's Disc 3, Track 6 ... "End Title - Alternate Version". I can only guess that Beneke selected his tracks based on the early cuts and not the finished production soundtrack.
Another Alamo mystery solved, at least for me.
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