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Post by Allen Wiener on May 4, 2010 15:15:23 GMT -5
New recording of full Tiomkin score from "The Alamo" -- note, this is not taken from the film soundtrack, but is a completely new recording, adding quite a bit of music not released on earlier editions of the soundtrack; info is via Paul Cool: www.screenarchives.com/title_detail.cfm/ID/13821/THE-ALAMO-3-CD-COMPLETE-SCORE/You can preview all of the tracks on the 3-CD set. Note this bullet: "New “Directors Cut” of the Complete Epic Film now in Preparation" -- Paul points out that there is no other info on the Web to corroborate this and info indicates that, while the full, widescreen/letterbox VHS "Director's Cut" included 30+ long-missing minutes from the film, that footage was only located on a print found in Canada. After that edition was released, the film reportedly again fell into decay and was again seen in the shortened, 161-minute version when issued on DVD. So, it's something of a mystery what the source would be for a new restored edition. Allen P.S. I did a bit of surfing and found this; we've seen this before and they've obviously missed their March 6, 2010 target date. www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris032009.html
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 17, 2010 9:33:09 GMT -5
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Post by Rich Curilla on May 17, 2010 18:52:33 GMT -5
I am very impressed with it. The orchestration and recording are great. The choralization leaves a bit to be desired IMO. But this 3-disc CD is a faithful answer to my dream to someday have the complete score.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 17, 2010 20:05:42 GMT -5
Rich, I bit the bullet and ordered it; could not find it on Amazon or as a download. I'll let you know what I think, but the online samples sounded very good.
Allen
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 25, 2010 17:57:04 GMT -5
I think this is a truly amazing recording. I'm not sure that anything like this has been done for any other film. All of the music that Dimitri Tiomkin composed for the film is on this recording, including some that was never used in the film and much that has never appeared on any recording before. It runs nearly 3 hours, which is not only incredible but indicates how much music actually was used in The Alamo.
I agree that the vocals are a bit less impressive than the rest of the score, but I'm not sure if that's really because they aren't every bit as good as the originals or if I'm just so used to hearing the Tiomkin originals that anything else is bound to sound a bit "off."
But that's just a very minor quibble as this is a beautiful album that benefits from the advances in recording technology that have been made since Tiomkin recorded his original score in 1960.
The liner notes indicate a 2-LP soundtrack was originally planned, but that negative reactions to an advance screening in August 1960 gave Columbia Records "cold feet" and they cut it to the now-familiar single LP soundtrack.
The notes also claim that Frankie Avalon sang "Here's to the Ladies" in the film, but that the footage was cut "from all but the full-length roadshow version." I found this puzzling as I saw the full film a week or two after it opened in New York and never saw Avalon's number. I also thought the "full-length" version of the film was the original, as released, cut; not the "roadshow" version, which I believe is the one that was edited.
There are a lot of weaknesses in Wayne's film, aside from the countless historical inaccuracies, but Tiomkin's music is not one of them. It's a great score that evokes the various moods and personalities of the film. This recording of it is a masterpiece and essential to any Alamo music collection.
Allen
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Post by Kevin Young on May 30, 2010 10:58:31 GMT -5
I think this is a truly amazing recording. I'm not sure that anything like this has been done for any other film. All of the music that Dimitri Tiomkin composed for the film is on this recording, including some that was never used in the film and much that has never appeared on any recording before. It runs nearly 3 hours, which is not only incredible but indicates how much music actually was used in The Alamo. I agree that the vocals are a bit less impressive than the rest of the score, but I'm not sure if that's really because they aren't every bit as good as the originals or if I'm just so used to hearing the Tiomkin originals that anything else is bound to sound a bit "off." But that's just a very minor quibble as this is a beautiful album that benefits from the advances in recording technology that have been made since Tiomkin recorded his original score in 1960. The liner notes indicate a 2-LP soundtrack was originally planned, but that negative reactions to an advance screening in August 1960 gave Columbia Records "cold feet" and they cut it to the now-familiar single LP soundtrack. The notes also claim that Frankie Avalon sang "Here's to the Ladies" in the film, but that the footage was cut "from all but the full-length roadshow version." I found this puzzling as I saw the full film a week or two after it opened in New York and never saw Avalon's number. I also thought the "full-length" version of the film was the original, as released, cut; not the "roadshow" version, which I believe is the one that was edited. There are a lot of weaknesses in Wayne's film, aside from the countless historical inaccuracies, but Tiomkin's music is not one of them. It's a great score that evokes the various moods and personalities of the film. This recording of it is a masterpiece and essential to any Alamo music collection. Allen Got mine and have enjoyed it. I just wonder how the Aggies felt watching the movie and hearing "The Eyes of Texas" so often in the score.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 30, 2010 14:59:57 GMT -5
It's funny you mention that as I noticed how frequently the liner notes refer to "Eyes of Texas." Honestly, I did not recall picking it up prior to this CD and I was sure the writer had mistaken something else for "The Eyes of Texas." When I went back and played it again I noticed it right away.
Allen
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Post by Kevin Young on May 30, 2010 15:41:36 GMT -5
I had an non-Texan associate who saw the movie and asked me "Why do they keep playing I've Been Working on the Road when all the stars get killed?" If you watch the credits you will see UT gets a thanks for letting them use the song.
One think I really never noticed was the use of a harpsicord in the arrangements.
I also came to appreciate the job of the sound editor who made some changes here and there with the actual movie track.
The other ending piece was intresting-a little to up beat for what was going onscreen-put I do like the use of the GLS in the middle of it.
The vocal stuff is a little off (just can't seem to say "thirteen" right) but all in all a very enjoyable CD.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 30, 2010 16:27:59 GMT -5
My reaction to the CD was the same, Kevin. I also noticed the pronunciation of "thirteen," as well as "eighteen." Considering the level of effort and detail that went into this, I'm surprised the producer did not spot this. Nonetheless, that seems a minor point considering all of the music they have recreated here. A really amazing effort.
Allen
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Post by Rich Curilla on May 31, 2010 21:16:15 GMT -5
Glad you guys enjoyed and appreciated the new recording as much as I did (though that may actually be impossible).
Allen, Frankie Avalon does sing Here's to the Ladies in the road show version (192 minutes). Not having seen it in Todd-AO in the actual road show, I can't attest to that, but the current uncut video of the roadshow has Frankie "singing" it at the birthday party in the Alamo. The original 1960 album has the cue for this on it -- which would have been used as playback for him to sing to on set. On the album, it was sans vocal. Interestingly, now that I'm thinking of it, this music-only piece does not appear on the new recording except as accompaniment to the replicant Frankie on the last disc.
I agree totally with your review and with your feeling that the problems we see are moot compared to the amazing overall achievement so in the true Tiomkin mood. I've heard too many modern redos by folks who just didn't *get it.* Nic Raine did.
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Post by Rich Curilla on May 31, 2010 21:25:41 GMT -5
My problem with the chorus is that they just didn't seem to *get it* as much as the orchestral presentation did. For one thing, the selection of studio for the orchestra was carefully "cast" to provide the accurate Tiomkin feel. Producer James Fitzpatrick understood the importance of having an acoustic situation that would not lose Tiomkin's incredible musical detail in reverberation, live or electronic. Unfortunately, it seems as if no similar concern was shown for the U.K. studio used for the chorus. And why the British singers couldn't master the American chorus's boldness in the Finale and other cues is beyond me. But again, a small price to pay for the overall perfectionism.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 31, 2010 21:56:23 GMT -5
I agree, Rich. Of course, memories fade over 50 years, so I may have actually seen the Avalon number and just don't remember. I do clearly remember that birthday party scene, because it made me cringe, and I recall Ken Curtis and Joan O'Brien singing "Tennessee Babe" during the scene.
Can you clarify which was the longer version; the original print shown when the film premiered (and which is the one I must have seen in New York a week or two after release), or the one that was literally sent out on the road for general distribution? We saw that version several times at a local drive in and elsewhere in the months that followed.
Allen
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Post by Rich Curilla on May 31, 2010 22:40:19 GMT -5
I agree, Rich. Of course, memories fade over 50 years, so I may have actually seen the Avalon number and just don't remember. I do clearly remember that birthday party scene, because it made me cringe, and I recall Ken Curtis and Joan O'Brien singing "Tennessee Babe" during the scene. Can you clarify which was the longer version; the original print shown when the film premiered (and which is the one I must have seen in New York a week or two after release), or the one that was literally sent out on the road for general distribution? We saw that version several times at a local drive in and elsewhere in the months that followed. Allen Sure. The roadshow version you saw on Broadway in Todd-AO was 192 minutes long -- 202, if you take into consideration the overture, entr'acte and walk-out music. That version only existed as 14 prints in 70 mm. with 6-channel stereophonic sound on interlocked 35 mm. magnetic film and played in 12 theaters domestically and 2 in Europe. The general release version (the only one I saw until the video in 1992) was in 35 mm. and had 4 optical stereo tracks (I think) on the print. It was 161 minutes long and had no overture, intermission or walk-out music. Wisely, the birthday party scene was one of the first things to go -- totally pedestrian directing not saved by the editing (made me cringe too). The long version apparently existed nowhere but on the 70 mm. prints, and all but one of those were physically cut to match the edits on the 70 mm. master. This is why that one print was the only complete version of the film (slipped into private hands illegally, which is all that saved it from oblivion.)
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Post by Rich Curilla on May 31, 2010 22:57:32 GMT -5
I just gave my full attention to the recording of the Crouch End Festival Chorus cues in the Nic Raine recording. I don't have a lot of choral background, but I was in one of the best senior highschool choruses in Pennsylvania -- a 90-voice ensemble under the direction of Richard Thorne, who was the enlightenment of my music world. From him, I (we) learned proper vocal and breath techniques as well as how to enunciate and present rounded, embodied tones. Unfortunately, I hear little of this from the Crouch gang. I hear screaming sopranos and altos singing from the throat rather than the diaphragm. I can hardly hear the basses and baritones -- very important elements in Tiomkin's choral treatments. I hear incorrect emphasis in vocal phrases, perhaps stemming from the British idiom.
And, yes, I'm sure my disgruntlement has to do with having the original eternally locked into my musical bedrock, and thank God it was perfect.
The choral portions simply did not rise to the same standards as the orchestra, and I don't understand why. And yet, they are still better than any other recent recording. At least it's not that German choir singing "Oh Liza" instead of "Oh Lisa." lol
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 31, 2010 23:57:47 GMT -5
I agree the choral stuff is a cut below the orchestrations, but a minor point here. The choral arrangements and performances on the original soundtrack album are superb and would be very difficult to equal. And, yes, they are stuck in our minds now, so no one's going to overcome that obstacle. Your observations about vocal technique are very interesting. I'm clueless on that stuff, but my daughter is a trained singer and knows all about it, so I'll try to run some of the original and the new choral recordings by her when I have a chance to get her take on them.
Allen
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