Patterns of clothing from the 1830's

[Wade Dillon]

Hey folks,

What sources are readily available, on the net or in literature, that show the pattern of clothing from the 1830's and earlier that would've been worn during the Texas Revolution?

I know Hefner and Zaboly greatly depict this, but I am looking for seam lines, etc. Details that aren't always seen in their artwork and the work of others.

Thank you.

All the best,
Wade

[stuart]

Don't know what's readily available over on your side of the Atlantic, but you could try Civil War re-enactors. The cut - as opposed to the fashion - doesn't seem to have changed much so far as things like seam placement and the relationship of sleeves to bodies and so on - very different from those of today.

[Rich Curilla]

Wade, if you still have Dan Orlandi's contact information (from your interview with him), why don't you see if he would be willing to feed you some of his sources? His creative choices came after his (or somebody's) research. It might be inaccessable stuff like the Disney Studios research library, or it might even simply lead back to our guys (Alan Huffines, Gary Zaboly and Steve Hardin) who were the historical consultants. But Dan's such a nice guy, that I'll bet he'd help you if he could.

And, Wade, the guy's name is *Hefter* not "Hefner." Hefner didn't need wardrobe for HIS troops! ;D

[steves]

wadedillon said:

Hey folks,

What sources are readily available, on the net or in literature, that show the pattern of clothing from the 1830's and earlier that would've been worn during the Texas Revolution?

I know Hefner and Zaboly greatly depict this, but I am looking for seam lines, etc. Details that aren't always seen in their artwork and the work of others.

Thank you.

All the best,
Wade

www.customvestments.com/index.html may be of interest
Steve

[billchemerka]

Men's clothing patterns of the 1830's are readily available via a number of historical costuming/reenactor clothing suppliers. An internet search will provide a number of responses which provide patterns. Also firms like Druid's Oak, for example, will make custom items. Be cautious, however, of assuming what is offered is actually correct for the time period.

Also be cautious of adopting the costuming from the 2004 film. The depicted mens' coat sleeves, for example, were anachronistically too wide, and the colors provided did not reflect the diverse and colorful fabrics of the period. In fact, the "dirty Dickens" philosophy which was adopted by the filmmakers was incorrectly translated in part to depict 1840's-style frocks (seemingly right out of Dickens' 1843 A Christmas Carol).

A correctly made hunting shirt or hunting frock is quite appropriate for the 1830s. As Gary Zaboly noted in the June 2004 issue of The Alamo Journal: "And more hunting shirts should have been added [to the film's wardrobe.]"
Round-About jackets are also a good choice for a laborer's 1830s look. Do not, however, confuse that garment with the Civil War-era sack coat worn by Edwin Hodge's Joe in the 2004 film.

In any event, any clothing with button holes should be hand-stitched. If they are machine-stitched, remove them and replace them with hand-stitching. However, the pre-1851 hand-stitching skills were so superb in many instances that they rival some machine patterns! But this is going a bit far, to be sure. It is better to wear your clothing and accoutrements correctly, unlike the epidemic of low hanging haversacks, hunting pouches and powder horns that were visible on Alamo Plaza last month.

[billchemerka]

www.customvestments.com/index.html may be of interest
Steve[/quote]

Yes! Another quality firm. And his notes are good, too. It should be noted, however, that when Custom Vestments states: "By the middle of the 1830's the tailcoat was becoming a dress wear item," do not interpret that to mean that all tailcoats were evolving into formal "dress wear." Coarse wool was still be made for those men on the lower socio-economic ladder who wished to look like the gentlemen in finer wool coats.

[mustanggray]

Wade,

It was good to finally meet you during HHD's!

While I tend to avoid(if possible) conversations regarding clothing I feel a few things need to be clarified. First off, while Hefter is known for research his artwork is the last place one should go for getting the right "look" of 1830's period garments. Zaboly has a far better mastery of the overall look but I would strongly discourage you from using his artwork to get the right seam lines. I love the work he just did for Hardin's Texian Macabre but I noticed several out of place seams therein. One of the only modern artists I would feel comfortable with using for a reference is Charles McBarron. he gives the proper look and he does this because he was also a tailor and deconstructed garments to work up drafts... the man knew the fit and cut of the clothing! The best artwork to use for reference is that done by contemporary artists... try going to the primary sources when possible.

Despite what some have suggested DO NOT look to fashions of the 1860's for the look of the 1830's. The cut and fit are completely different, no way around it, sorry.

While the last Alamo movie did sport somewhat better costuming than other attempts it was still not right. From what I saw in wardrobe to what I saw on screen and what Mr. Orlandi said on set I don't really think any of those folks quite "got it". They should have looked at original artwork and hit the next source...

Ready made patterns from Past Patterns. Saundra Altman has several excellent patterns and is always working on new pieces. She takes an original garment and makes a pattern off of that. The good thing about her patterns is they are made to fit the modern body, the bad thing about her patterns are they are made to fit the modern body! Maybe the bad thing is the modern body? All I can say is go to Past Patterns first and then look at some of the other suppliers out there.

As others have mentioned buyer beware! There are several folks out there professing to make and or sell period garments that are simply not period garments. Some make decent low end goods as would have been found during the period while others offer the finest goods available both then and now! Aside from those already mentioned Steve Abolt of Allegheny Arsenal does the finest 1830's goods available and Phil Graf of The Company Tailor does really nice stuff as well. Heck, a shameless self plug here... I even do select goods from time to time!

I'm sure this is enough to get a rumble rolling... maybe Phil will step in and post something in regards!

[billchemerka]

mustanggray said:

Saundra Altman has several excellent patterns and is always working on new pieces. She takes an original garment and makes a pattern off of that. The good thing about her patterns is they are made to fit the modern body, the bad thing about her patterns are they are made to fit the modern body! Maybe the bad thing is the modern body?

Brilliant! Well said!
Properly fitted clothing to the period rather than to the modern wearer can be both awkward and uncomfortable. The ungainly feel of a 1770s shirt on one's shoulders or the tight fit of an 1861 Huntsville Guards frock on one's sleeves immediately comes to mind.

[Wade Dillon]

Thanks for the post, Scott. I just wish we had the chance to talk longer while in San Antonio.

How may I contact Saundra Altman and Steve Abolt? I've heard both names and understand their some of the best at what they do. What items do you make, Scott?

And a thanks to everyone else, as well, for the quality posts! While clothing of the 1830's is an interest of mine; I'm trying to wrap my mind around how one would've lived back then.

Thank you!

All the best,
Wade

[mustanggray]

Wade,

Saundra Altman has a website for Past Patterns... Steve's email is sacbg7 at lynchburg.net.

I make vests, shirts, trousers, stocks, buckskin garments, 19th century reproduction flags, paint drums, and all sorts of other things!

[Wade Dillon]

Scott,

Thank you. You'll be hearing from me soon through pm.

All the best,
Wade Dillon

[tmdreb]

Commercial patterns from this era are more difficult to come by than for other periods. There's a gaping hole between the American Revolution and the Civil War. It's the same with buying ready-made clothing as well. There just simply aren't as many people who reenact this era as there are some others.

There are also quite a few patterns of poor or questionable quality out there. Avoid the ones that claim to work for a time period spanning several decades. That's usually a clue they know little about patterns.

The advice regarding fit posted earlier is sound. Your first time to put on a coat from this era that's cut correctly you'll think it was meant for your sister. And yes, we do tend to be a bit more stout than the majority of folks back then. However, most tailoring manuals from the period discuss how to fit those of us who eat a lot and don't exercise. So it is possible to have your garments made for the modern body in an authentic fashion.

You've had some good advice, and I think you've realized that clothing yourself in decent reproductions of 1830's clothing isn't very easy, but it can be done, as long as you do it right.

Let me know if I can be of help. I can draft a pattern for you for just about any garment you want, or I can sew something for you.

[marklemon]

Wade,
have a look at the following website. While it offers no tailoring details or patterns, there is a gold mine of great images there showing men and women from the 1840's on up. Men's everyday styles almost did not change from the 1830's the through the 1840's, except for a few deatils of waistcoat and frock coat collars, so some great ideas about clothing from the Alamo period can be had here. Particulary informative are the hairstyles of men of that era, as well as the preponderance of large neckties or neckerchiefs, even on working men. Look at the Gold Rush, Occupational, Military, Groups, and Portraits sections for cothing that is representational of the 1830's.

dagerreian.org/fm3/galleries.php

Good luck,
Mark L.

[doc]

It will be difficult to locate, but the best book is David Holman and Billie Persons, BUCKSKIN AND HOMESPUN: TEXAS FRONTIER CLOTHING, 1820-1870. (Austin: Wind River Press, 1979). It is an out-of-print, high-dollar, fine press book, but you should be able to get it via inter-library loan. Or, if you can wait until the next High Holy Days, you can examine my copy.

Also useful is R. I. Davis, MEN'S GARMENTS, 1830-1900 (London: B. T. Batsford, 1989). It is also expensive, but is still in print--or it was the last time I checked. I also have a copy of this one.

For Tejano and Mexican attire, see Jose Cisneros, RIDERS ACROSS THE CENTURIES: HORSEMEN OF THE SPANISH BORDERLANDS (El Paso: Texas Western Press, 1984).

It's a tad early and REAL hard to find, but you'd also want to look at Claudio Linati, TRAJES CIVILES, MILITARES Y RELIGIOSOS DE MEXICO (Mexico, D. F.: Miguel Angel Porrua, S. A., no date). This is a reprint of Linati's classic 1828 work, but even the reprint is hard to come by nowadays. Again, you're welcome to look at my copy. Give me a heads-up and I'll bring them to Joan's next Alamo party.--SLH

[glforeman]

I know some of you are loyal to the Disney movie folks, but I was generally disappointed with many of the Anglo clothing---baggy and sloppy --- Mexican Soldados fared much better. The cut of the 1830s is much different than Civil War. Sleeves and bodice are tighter, smarter than the mass produced sack coat. I still have dozens of sketches McBarron did for me when we were working on a Texas Sketchbook idea. Scott is right on, McBarron is one of the best...and go first (if you can) with Steve Abolt.
GLF