Quick question Alamo Canon Location

[cje]

Looking at the Cattle Pen and the Convent Yard. Was there a canon in each? Thanks.

[Rich Curilla]

There is still some conjecture on this (where isn't there?), and, to a degree, you will have to reach your own conclusion.

Both Sanchez-Navarro plats show two courtyards with a cannon in the N.E. corner of each, both pointed north through embrasures. Both plats were drawn from memory in the months and years that followed.

LaBastida's plat that he drew during the siege as a battle map for Santa Anna's planning, shows one overall courtyard with one cannon platform in the N.E. corner apparently "en barbette" or enabling the cannon to fire any direction north or east over the wall. The feeling is that LaBastida had only been able to view the fort from the outside before drawing the plat, thus not being able to see an inner dividing wall.

20th. century archeological digs on the site as well as 1840's U.S. Army plats by Edward Everett determine that the east walls of both courtyards were in a direct line with no jog that would enable a cannon to fire north from the inner corner as on the S-N plats. This might also have been why LaBastida thought it was only one yard, not being able to see the dividing wall from outside the fort.

Thus, my opinion at this time from the available data is that there was only one cannon. It fired over the wall in both directions, not through an embrasure. Since the platform supporting it was described as being only 1.5 feet above ground level and that both the LaBastida plat and an archeological dig revealed a riflemen's tranch behind the north wall of the courtyard, it is believed that this wall was only 4.5 feet high. This, of course, would have meant that an inner dividing wall would certainly have been visible to LaBastida outside the fort. So, every conclusion creates more questions than answers. ;D

[loucapitano]

While we're conjecturing about cannon Rich, what's the final or most current thought about the cannon(s) at the south wall palisade? Starting with RM Potter, historians placed 4 four pound cannons allong the packed earth baricade. Most new sources place one 12 pounder at that location. Can anyone trace the evolution of the change? Has recent archeology settled the question or raised more? Also, how many and of what caliber were the guns that defended the south tambour at the porte cochere?
Rich, your opinion would be most welcome.

[Rich Curilla]

Oct 20, 2012 13:27:29 GMT -5 loucapitano said:

While we're conjecturing about cannon Rich, what's the final or most current thought about the cannon(s) at the south wall palisade? Starting with RM Potter, historians placed 4 four pound cannons allong the packed earth baricade. Most new sources place one 12 pounder at that location. Can anyone trace the evolution of the change? Has recent archeology settled the question or raised more? Also, how many and of what caliber were the guns that defended the south tambour at the porte cochere?
Rich, your opinion would be most welcome.

I think we are as clear as can be on the palisade at this point. Just one cannon. All primary sources say this. LaBastida, Sanchez-Navarro, Filisola... And, I have grown convinced (due to a careful detail on LaBastida's map) that this piece was mounted on a garrison carriage rather than a field carriage. Potter's account is, I believe, where the four cannon behind the palisade originated -- with no source given. Potter, it must be assumed, combined heresay and his personal opinion with the information (also shaky) he obtained from his Sargent Bacerra.

As for the tambour, this too is pretty clear now. Filisola says, "In the door of the enclosure mentioned [referring to the main gate and plaza], there was built a platform on which could be placed two artillery pieces, with the entrance on the right hand." This would be describing the area inside the tambour as you look out from the gate, since that is the direction of his descriptive tour. He thus places the gate on the south side of the tambour, which is corroborated by LaBastida's plat as well as one of Sanchez-Navarro's. The other S-N plat shows no entrance to the tambour from the outside, converting the entrance into a third cannon port. If this were so, then the Alamo would have no ingress and egress wider than six feet. Unbelievably, George Nelson used this source for his aerial view painting of the Alamo compound at the time of the battle and likewise has three guns and no gate therefore ignoring LaBastida, Filisola and the earlier (and IMO more credible) S-N plat.

As for the calibre of the guns, Tom Lindley did some ground-breaking research to determine what artillery was most likely at the Alamo for the siege. Mark Lemon presented this quite well in his book, saying that the tambour guns were most likely a 6-pounder and a 4-pounder. This, I believe, is mostly through deductive reasoning on Tom's and/or Mark's part, as I've never seen primary material that mentions their calibre. One pointed south to cover the Plaza de Valero; the other, east as enfilade fire across the approach to the abatis and palisade. Rick Range's research for his up-coming book featuring a fresh study of the artillery supports this. The palisade gun was "probably" a 4-pounder. I don't recall any evidence or account saying this was a 12-pounder -- other than movies (including JLH's).

I would think that the "evolution" of this was that everybody simply took Potter's word for it and thus extablished it as Alamo tradition until historians started to dig into primary accounts in the last half century and found no evidence of four cannon at the palisade.

I have heard of no archeological evidence regarding cannon since that would require digging upwards instead of down. ;D

[Rich Curilla]

Oct 18, 2012 15:20:38 GMT -5 cje said:

Looking at the Cattle Pen and the Convent Yard. Was there a canon in each? Thanks.

I just noticed tonight that Filisola also refers to only one cannon in the S.E. corner of the eastern courtyards.

[stuart]

Although I don't get over here as much as I'd like, I would like to add a small caveat to the discussion above.

Filisola says "there was built a platform on which could be placed two artillery pieces, with the entrance on the right hand" (My emphasis)

That was how it was built by Cos' engineers but it doesn't necessarily follow that the Texians had two cannon mounted there.

Moreover, there has been a lot of discussion in the past as to where Colonel Crockett was posted with a general agreement Sutherland's statement placing him with some Tennesseans on the palisade next the church in the first hours of the siege did not necessarily keep him there over the next 12 days. Similarly just because Jameson mounted or proposed to mount his rather too abundant cannon at particular points before the Mexicans arrived, it must be allowed that there may have been a certain degree of shifting about as Mexican intentions became apparent.

[Rich Curilla]

Very good point, Stuart. I know this and yet continually forget to consider it. I guess my desire to be sure outweighs my feeling that we will always never know. LOL.