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Post by rayjr on Mar 17, 2014 17:30:14 GMT -5
Rich,
You are not really depicting the structure "after the assault" in its leveled condition - so I would presume that its "pre-destruction" nature remains a relevant topic. Do you have some sense of what it means to be "point-blank"? The cannon you depict seems to be across the square and above the sight line on top of the church - which by the way, I always wondered how they mounted a cannon on top of the original church. Do you think there was a rampart in place like you depicted? Just curious. I guess this is why I first thought the "cart" you showed was a cannon - perhaps they re-positioned one out of the bastions they set up on the square. I agree with the account - I wish it included more information.
On a separate note - I did go through Chabot - comparing to the Matovino/de la Teja publication of the second portion of Menchaca's memoirs. It seems that Chabot used a different source. He does take a similar approach listing primary families around the squares - but the sequence is totally different. He also has some emphasis on Menchaca property - which might indicate some kind of overlap. I would not think he would deliberately scramble his listing just to be different - and he ADDS additional information. So I suspect he was going from original archive documents of some sort. The sort that helped him with his genealogy in The Makers of San Antonio. (Interesting how he followed a similar title style - to Bolton's The Makers of Texas).
Anyway - it might take me a little while - but I though it might be helpful to reconcile Menchaca & Chabot & Jackson. So I am putting the listings on a spreadsheet to compare and contrast families and to compare & contrast sequence around the squares.
I am hoping to nail down some of the original positioning to help with your wonderful renderings - to the extent that it is worthwhile doing so.
Also, I noticed your last post showing the image from the canon point of view. The structure directly north of the church which you show looks like a single story with no windows facing the church. In any case - this house is purportedly that of Toribio de la Fuentes Y Fernandez. The father of the parish priest of 19 years - Pedro de la Fuentes. Thought you might be interested.
Regards, Ray
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 19, 2014 11:02:23 GMT -5
Here are three other view of the church battery and Priest's House relationship. I am by no means convinced that the battery (2 guns, actually) was atop the church, although participants' accounts seem to be saying that. I think Bowie's was one. In his description from Mission Concepcion in one of his letters he says something like "from a battery on the church." Likewise for others. The one that makes me doubt this was from one of the Texians who attacked the house. He referred to a cannon in the "atrium" of the church. Jack Jackson and a few others believe(d) that a wooden ramp was the access to the church roof. That would have to be some ramp due to having to be 6 feet long for every 1 foot of elevation. I still don't buy into that one. Gary Zaboly assures me however that cannon tubes and carriages were often derrick-lifted to a high position and a ramp was only for men and materials and thus could be a steeper incline. In any event, whatever house structure was there, I have little doubt that it wouldn't have been nearly leveled by the cannonading. Am I seeing from all this that the house would indeed have been two stories prior to 1835, even if the Samuel painting is showing a later rendition of it? Interestingly, his depiction also does not look anything like the later Plaza House Hotel on the same site. Attachments:
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Post by rayjr on Mar 19, 2014 17:52:56 GMT -5
Rich,
Excellent - now I see how the cannon was positioned. You probably already had this view earlier. I agree with you - it is still hard to believe it would be on top. But hauling the tubes up could make sense.
I am going to have to look into this Samuel painting further.
Thanks, Ray
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 19, 2014 19:06:20 GMT -5
Here is a photograph of the north side of the plaza showing the Plaza House on the site of the Priest's House. I tried to download my shot of the Samuel painting that I took in the Witte Museum during HHD, but it is more than one MB and wouldn't take.
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Post by edward on Mar 19, 2014 21:10:13 GMT -5
This is a pic, taken with my camera, from the book Painting Texas History to 1900, of that area. I just used Bluetooth to send from camera to PC something I did not know I could do even though I have had this phone for 1/2 a year. LOL.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 24, 2014 14:42:24 GMT -5
Thanks Edward. I suppose, when other W.G.M. Samuel inaccuracies are considered, this could be his depiction of the same structure that became the Plaza House. There are just basic structural differences that suggest a rebuilt building, like the wide entrance flanked by six large windows on the second floor on the 1849 painting when compared to the 1857 lithograph and ca.1861 photograph showing no entrance and four large door-windows. The Samuel painting has no dormers on the gable roof. The later version shows five -- and a full building balcony vs. Samuel's one-door wide central porch with a staircase on each end -- over a wide doorway not shown in the later depictions. How off-base could Samuel have been?
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 24, 2014 14:59:22 GMT -5
Here is a better view of Samuel's painting. I scanned it from the Time-Life book The Texans by David Nevin. The whole picture is two pages wide and much too big for my 8x11 scanner, but I was able to do just this detail. Opposite, again, is the photo, and a detail from the 1861 photo of the plaza.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 27, 2014 2:29:29 GMT -5
Veramendi and Antonio de la Garza houses. Looking west from over Soledad Street. Veramendi and Antonio de la Garza houses in bottom right corner. Priest's House (Refugio de la Garza) in bottom left corner with Yturri House just above it on the corner of Acequia Street (with 1836 damage from shot from 18-pounder at the Alamo). One block west on the corner of Presidio and Flores is the Jose Antonio Navarro house with Zambrano Row adjoining it to the north. One block west from that is the house identified as Padre Maynes' house by William Corner in 1890 with Gen. Cos' battery in the north end of the yard with a clear shot at the De la Garza and Veramendi houses. Campo Santo is across San Pedro Creek at the top of the frame at the end of Rivas Street.
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Post by edward on Mar 27, 2014 13:07:00 GMT -5
Partial will of Maria Josefa de la Garza 1826 [wife of J. Casanoba (Casanova)] 4. I declare as my property in the first place, the house in which I live, situated in the street running parallel to the Acequia Madre of this city. The house consists of a stone living room with a roof of rafters and shingles, in good condition; an adobe room on the south side with a roof thatched with straw, in fair condition, and another room on the north of the living room, constructed of stone. I leave this property to my son Anacleto. At the rear of the house on the east there is a kitchen which is only a chamacuero, and belongs to said living room. My son Anacleto shall advance no claim or objection to this addition, because I leave him the front and depth described in the deed to this property which I bought from my sister-in-law Antonia Casanoba. I hereby make known that I acquired the remainder of the land at the rear, the boundaries of which are set forth in the said deed, by reason of having paid the funeral expenses of the late Juan Christostomo Casanoba. I have a document which proves this statement.
9. I declare as my property a small tract of land situated at the front of the house of Juan Martin de Beramendi. This land belongs to the same solar as that on which my house stands, and was a gift by inheritance from Higinio Casanoba. I give and donate said land to Perfecta Diaz in consideration of the kindness and diligent services she has rendered me. And because I reared her. Los Bexareños register Vol. XIII, #1, pg.266/9 Dignowty is shown owning this corner property across the Veramendi House on the south side of the alley (opp Antonio De La Garza property), acquired from Perfecta Diaz. SACE 1:39 1848
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 27, 2014 15:43:57 GMT -5
Wow, Edward. Thanks. That's pretty darn clear and worthy of following through with specific changes on the model. A question I had when imaginating that S.W. corner of Soledad Street and Veramendi Alley was would there have been a structure there in 1835-36? I show a building based on the later Sanborn map of the property, but it could certainly have been a vacant lot at that time. I assume that her "small tract of land" across from Veramendi's means that no structure was on it. Any thoughts?
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Post by edward on Mar 27, 2014 19:01:13 GMT -5
Rich, 5 OCT 1848, Perfecta Diaz sells her lot to Dignowity for $270. No mention of any house or structure is noted. However it is mentioned the south/west corner of the lot is located by the corner of the kitchen of a stone house of Manuel Menchaca who has the lot south of hers. So I would assume that her lot has been empty since 1828 because of the omission of any structure in the sell deed (G1:426) in 1848. I have this lot empty in my model.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 28, 2014 0:33:02 GMT -5
Great information, Edward. Thanks again. I'll raze the adobe building. (Well, I'll move it to some other spot. )
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 28, 2014 2:09:02 GMT -5
Rich, 5 OCT 1848, Perfecta Diaz sells her lot to Dignowity for $270. No mention of any house or structure is noted. However it is mentioned the south/west corner of the lot is located by the corner of the kitchen of a stone house of Manuel Menchaca who has the lot south of hers. So I would assume that her lot has been empty since 1828 because of the omission of any structure in the sell deed (G1:426) in 1848. I have this lot empty in my model.
Edward, here is the 1877 Sanborn map showing (amazingly) a "kitchen" which I have outlined in red. My yellow outline represents possible fence lines for Dona Perfecta's lot -- if that kitchen is THE kitchen.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 29, 2014 2:05:03 GMT -5
Main Plaza looking south from Soledad Street. Same camera angle from my 1835 model and an 1868 photograph.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 29, 2014 2:44:46 GMT -5
Edward, here is my redo of the lot across Soledad from the Veramendi House. First is my original plan with the adobe structure on the corner across from the Veramendi. Here is my conjecture of how Perfecta Diaz' lot might have been laid out. The stone kitchen is depicted at the S.W. corner of her lot and is placed precisely on site of the "kitchen" indicated on the 1877 Sanborn map. I have not yet dabbled with the Jose Antonio de la Garza block to make it conform with Dona Maria Josefa's 1826 description in her will. Her described arrangement of stone vs. adobe rooms still doesn't lock in for me. Gotta stare at the words some more before adapting the buildings. My De la Garza house south facade is a depiction based on a late 19th. century photo of the existing structure. This doesn't fit her description, so perhaps what latter-day San Antonians called the De la Garza house was actually a later rebuilt structure. This would make sense due to the heavy bombardment and cannonade it sustained during the battle of Bexar. Was Jose Antonio already dead by 1826 that she was willing it away?
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