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Post by Hiram on Mar 16, 2010 19:47:12 GMT -5
On the 24th, Travis wrote the flag - what ever it was - waives proudly from the walls. If this flag was something other than the tricolor 2-star, why wouldn't Sanchez-Navarro have put it into his drawing of the Alamo? Surely he would have seen it. Would the defenders have mounted the flag in a inconspicuous location? Glenn I don't have an answer for you Glenn, but I'm always struck by the quote on 24 February which you mentioned...our flag still waves proudly from the walls... It reminds me of another important date in our history, 14 September 1814, when Francis Scott Key wrote that our flag was still there.
I don't have any hard supportive evidence to suggest that Travis would not refer to the Coahuila y Tejas banner as our flag, I just don't think that by the second day of the siege, WBT would refer to anything of Mexican origin as our.
As for Sanchez-Navarro's inclusion of the two-star tricolor in his illustration, I will defer to someone else who has done more research on S-N...Mark?
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Post by Kevin Young on Mar 16, 2010 19:53:09 GMT -5
I would agree with you. Certainly, the Mexicans kept almost every flag they captured during the Texas Republic Period.
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Post by marklemon on Mar 16, 2010 23:02:19 GMT -5
It's generally assumed that Jose Juan Sanchez-Navarro ("SN") executed all of his plan and elevations of the Alamo from memory at some point after San Jacinto. The practicalities of the Mexican Army withdrawal from Texas afterward, and its arrival in Matamoros in (I think) June or July of 1836, would seem to indicate that he did not have the time and reflective inclination to make these drawings until safely ensconced back in friendly environs. So, this is a long way of saying that when we look as SN's drawings, we are looking at his memories of what he saw. This surely accounts for the bizarre inaccuracies pertaining to the plan view (church on line with convento, and eastern courtyards way too long, etc). How this pertains to the flag, or flags he saw, remembered, or forgot, we cannot know. It is clear however, that the one flag (if indeed there were others flying) he did remember was the two-star tricolor. Almonte also saw the same flag flying earlier in the military plaza of Bexar, and saw it being lowered. This is truly a verified Alamo flag. The question is only: "What others were there?" A final word about drawings as evidence: As an artist, I have a unique perspective on this phenomenon , and I always caution people not to take drawings too literally ESPECIALLY if they are not executed "on the spot." The amount of data that artists delete, overlook, or forget can be astounding, and just because an artist draws something, does not make it as accurate as a photograph. And it should be treated with a healthy degree of caution, regardless of the status of the artist. For example, Seth Eastman is often touted as being practically beyond reproach. However, I can readily show several examples of significant inaccuracies regarding spatial relationships and proportions in his work. Just look at his drawing of San Fernando for example, as opposed to a photograph of the same edifice. Quite a few proportion issues. All I mean to say by this is that SN saw the Alamo, and drew it several months later from memory. If he saw more than one flag, the only one he remembered, or chose to depict, was the two-star tricolor.
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Post by stuart on Mar 17, 2010 3:13:21 GMT -5
Just by way of adding to Mark's post, the flag question is one we've discussed before - including that fascinating illustration of captured ones in a Mexican museum - and the point has been made that whether or not the New Orleans Greys flag or any other unit flag was flown at the Alamo or just found propped in a corner, the flag flying over it had to be a bigger one than would normally be carried in the field, (on the matter of Travis' $5 flag, its worth remembering that he bought it for his proposed cavalry corps, not to fly over the Alamo) and that brings us back to the large tricolour with two blue stars separately depicted and described.
Hence my suggestion earlier: If the original Alamo flag was the Mexican one with the eagle and snake replaced by Constitution of 1824, and if Travis and his Secesh then wanted to make the point that they were no longer fighting for a Federal Mexico, but for an independent Texas, it was going to be a whole lot easier to paint or sew two stars over the inscription, than to make up a whole new flag according to a spec they had probably never seen.
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Post by marklemon on Mar 17, 2010 10:13:26 GMT -5
There is an interesting triangulation of witnesses for the two-star tricolor being available to the defenders during the siege. Almonte saw it flying in the Military Plaza, then lowered (and presumably taken to the Alamo), then Sanchez-Navarro saw it flying over the church and remembered it several months later when he drew his plan and elevation, and finally it was seen by a boy named Pablo Diaz from the mission at Concepcion. This last witness mistook the flag as "Mexican," due surely to the two-star's similarity to the Mexican standard, as well as the distance, some 3 miles, at which he made his observation. By the way, for anyone, even with the aid of an eyeglass, to see that it was even a tricolor at this distance, must have meant that the flag was very large.....just as it would have been if it had flown over the military plaza. So, to harken back to Stuart's good point, Travis' flag, be it a star and stripe flag, or whatever it was, would have been too small to have flown as a garrison flag, and so the two-star tricolor may have been the garrison flag by default due to its size alone. And whatever flag Travis brought may have been reserved by him as his HQ flag, or meant to represent his regulars, and may have flown at his quarters.
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Post by billchemerka on Mar 17, 2010 10:45:26 GMT -5
On the 24th, Travis wrote the flag - what ever it was - waives proudly from the walls. If this flag was something other than the tricolor 2-star, why wouldn't Sanchez-Navarro have put it into his drawing of the Alamo? Surely he would have seen it. Would the defenders have mounted the flag in a inconspicuous location? Glenn I don't have an answer for you Glenn, but I'm always struck by the quote on 24 February which you mentioned...our flag still waves proudly from the walls... It reminds me of another important date in our history, 14 September 1814, when Francis Scott Key wrote that our flag was still there.
I don't have any hard supportive evidence to suggest that Travis would not refer to the Coahuila y Tejas banner as our flag, I just don't think that by the second day of the siege, WBT would refer to anything of Mexican origin as our.
As for Sanchez-Navarro's inclusion of the two-star tricolor in his illustration, I will defer to someone else who has done more research on S-N...Mark?Note: Key's comment about "our flag" did not refer to the one that flew over Fort McHenry during the famous War of 1812 battle. The familiar, iconic banner replaced the battle flag after the British guns went silent. As such, care must be taken when interpreting contemporary comments about Alamo flags as well. [All the best to Carter, who, no doubt, knows the identity of the President of the United States in 1812!]
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Post by Hiram on Mar 17, 2010 12:28:20 GMT -5
Note: Key's comment about "our flag" did not refer to the one that flew over Fort McHenry during the famous War of 1812 battle. The familiar, iconic banner replaced the battle flag after the British guns went silent. As such, care must be taken when interpreting contemporary comments about Alamo flags as well. [All the best to Carter, who, no doubt, knows the identity of the President of the United States in 1812!] The flag measured 30' x 42 3/4', and was sewn by Mary Pickersgill of Baltimore, after being commissioned by Major George Armistead, uncle of future Confederate general Lewis Armistead. Ironically, the famous banner was shipped overseas to England for safekeeping during the War Between the States.
The comparison made between "those broad stripes and bright stars" and the Alamo flag Travis was referring to in his letter is not contingent on when the flag flew, but what that flag meant to the person writing about it, whether in 1814 or 1836.
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Post by marklemon on Mar 17, 2010 12:43:55 GMT -5
I am coming around to the thinking that, in a perfect world, Travis would have preferred a huge garrison flag of the "star and stripe" variety, but that the only flag apparently large enough at the time, and present on hand, was the large two-star tricolor. His $5 flag would have been more to his personal tastes, but wouldn't have, as Stuart said, been large enough. So, as beggars can't be choosers, Travis may have satisfied himself with the knowledge that the two-star tricolor, being as it was a perversion of the Mexican standard, had just enough rebelliousness to suit him, and used it as the garrison flag. He certainly would have known that any flag that wasn't a proper Mexican one, would have screamed "rebellion," and would have incensed the Mexicans.
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Post by alamonorth on Mar 17, 2010 13:19:27 GMT -5
In its general discusssion of the development of the Texas Flag an article in Volume III, page 171, of the SWHQ offers an opinion of why the !824 was flown at the Alamo. The author maintains that the 1824 flag, represented the power of the conservative section of the revolutionary movement.
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Post by billchemerka on Mar 17, 2010 14:23:47 GMT -5
Note: Key's comment about "our flag" did not refer to the one that flew over Fort McHenry during the famous War of 1812 battle. The familiar, iconic banner replaced the battle flag after the British guns went silent. As such, care must be taken when interpreting contemporary comments about Alamo flags as well. [All the best to Carter, who, no doubt, knows the identity of the President of the United States in 1812!] The flag measured 30' x 42 3/4', and was sewn by Mary Pickersgill of Baltimore, after being commissioned by Major George Armistead, uncle of future Confederate general Lewis Armistead. Ironically, the famous banner was shipped overseas to England for safekeeping during the War Between the States.
The comparison made between "those broad stripes and bright stars" and the Alamo flag Travis was referring to in his letter is not contingent on when the flag flew, but what that flag meant to the person writing about it, whether in 1814 or 1836.Indeed. I seem to recall a History Channel documentary about the War of 1812: www.imdb.com/title/tt0425988/ All the best.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Mar 17, 2010 14:47:11 GMT -5
Isn't the Fort McHenry flag in the Smithsonian? I recall seeing a H-U-G-E flag on display there, said to be THE flag, on one of my many trips to D.C. last year.
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Post by Hiram on Mar 17, 2010 14:47:58 GMT -5
(on the matter of Travis' $5 flag, its worth remembering that he bought it for his proposed cavalry corps, not to fly over the Alamo)... Its a small point perhaps but WBT received his "marching" orders on 21 January from Gov. Smith to reinforce the Alamo, and on that same day purchased the flag along with other supplies. I don't think its necessarily given that Travis purchased the flag specifically for the corps since his orders were to ride to Bexar.
Now I have my own question...can we get a good "reading" on the size of the flag based on its price tag? $5.00 in 1836 dollars amounts to about $120.00 in 2010 dollars.
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Post by Hiram on Mar 17, 2010 14:58:01 GMT -5
Isn't the Fort McHenry flag in the Smithsonian? I recall seeing a H-U-G-E flag on display there, said to be THE flag, on one of my many trips to D.C. last year. Yep, that's the one. It went through an extensive preservation project back in 1998-1999.
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Post by billchemerka on Mar 17, 2010 15:09:42 GMT -5
(on the matter of Travis' $5 flag, its worth remembering that he bought it for his proposed cavalry corps, not to fly over the Alamo)... Its a small point perhaps but WBT received his "marching" orders on 21 January from Gov. Smith to reinforce the Alamo, and on that same day purchased the flag along with other supplies. I don't think its necessarily given that Travis purchased the flag specifically for the corps since his orders were to ride to Bexar.
Now I have my own question...can we get a good "reading" on the size of the flag based on its price tag? $5.00 in 1836 dollars amounts to about $120.00 in 2010 dollars.Based upon the econometric formula used in the article"Alamoney: How Much is That in 1836 Dollars ( The Alamo Journal, #111, Dec. 1998), the general price level of all goods & services in 1836 applied to the most recent year yields a multiplier of 19. Hence, five 1836 dollars translates to approximately ninety-five 2009-10 dollars. All the best.
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Post by stuart on Mar 17, 2010 16:45:50 GMT -5
(on the matter of Travis' $5 flag, its worth remembering that he bought it for his proposed cavalry corps, not to fly over the Alamo)... Its a small point perhaps but WBT received his "marching" orders on 21 January from Gov. Smith to reinforce the Alamo, and on that same day purchased the flag along with other supplies. I don't think its necessarily given that Travis purchased the flag specifically for the corps since his orders were to ride to Bexar.
Now I have my own question...can we get a good "reading" on the size of the flag based on its price tag? $5.00 in 1836 dollars amounts to about $120.00 in 2010 dollars.No, I have to disagree, Travis was intended to operate out of Bexar, under Neill's command, and in fact was still at that point hoping to go with everybody else to the Rio Grande. There was no reason at all for him to be buying a flag to fly over Bexar and no reason to suppose it was for anything other than his cavalry unit as all the other supplies he purchased were for his men. As for the flag itself; whether $5 equates in modern terms to $90 or $120, it doesn't sound that cheap; it could have had a painted device on it, but I'd say the cost isn't at all inconsistent with the ammount of sewing needed to produce a star and stripes - has anybody got a contemporary price comparator for producing a real US flag?
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