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Post by Allen Wiener on Dec 13, 2008 18:42:01 GMT -5
I think it's a small matter of degree. Obviously, the Mexican assault met some resistence from the Texians for a short period and suffered casualties. However, nothing the Texians could do, once a full-scale assault was underway, would have changed the outcome. Nothing they did, or could have done, would have stopped the Mexicans from ultimately reaching the walls and getting under the cannon. From that point, by sheer force of numbers, the Mexicans were going to take the wall. We're also forgetting our friend Morales at the south end and the discussion we had a while ago about whether or not he had already gained entrance to the fort before the north wall collapsed.
Some of the old cliches are still true -- as Glenn says, the result was never really in doubt once the defenders were penned up in the Alamo, with no realistic chance of major relief. Any full-scale assualt was going to find the Texians spread too thin to maintain a defense indefinitely. Add to that the factors of sleep deprivation, which Mark painted so well, and the element of surprise and you're in a pretty bad spot.
No doubt they all did the best they could under these conditions; there's no question about that. They were in for the long haul when the stayed in Bexar, long after they could have headed for home or taken off with Grant.
AW
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Post by marklemon on Dec 13, 2008 18:59:14 GMT -5
One small disagreement with you Glenn....instead of the seemingly near-instantaneous response which you allow the Texians after the "Vivas" began, it is my understanding based on the available evidence that it was most likely those "vivas" which alerted the officer on duty, Adjutant Baugh, who then ran (from where? the North wall?) all the way to the midpoint on the west wall where he in turn alerted Travis, who then got up, grabbed his weapon, and ran to his north wall post. In this time frame, I think it very possible for at least the vanguard of Mexican infantry to have reached the base of the wall. And this is where I have a disagreement with Herb's assessment that even trained troops, or regulars would not have done much better. I will always maintain that trained troops would have busied themselves during the month of February in cutting and dragging trees to the most strategic points, the north wall among them, and would have placed them at the pre-determined point of lowest cannon barrel elevation (I think that it has been determined to be about 45 yards from the wall). Had they done this, the "vivas" would have alerted Baugh, and by the time Travis and the gunners made it to the north wall, the Mexicans would still be entangled in the abatis at least 45 yards out from the wall, right in the killing zone for the artillery. This may have had a significant effect on the outcome of the battle, assuming they had similarly prepared the ground at other points. The issue of the lack of defensive fieldworks, and how this lack affected the outcome, is a much-overlooked topic.
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Post by Herb on Dec 13, 2008 20:02:38 GMT -5
Mark, you're not reading my posts! What I said was given the circumstances of March 6th, it wouldn't have mattered, but that professional troops would have provided a disciplined work force prior to that - ie they would have changed the circumstances. Again, I'll stand firm, the battle was not lost when the Mexicans showed upon the 23rd, but when they got under the cannons on the 6th. Had the defenders been alert and began firing their cannon as the Mexican Forces assembled (the initial positions were all apparently within cannon range) and kept the Mexican forces from getting under that fire - the whole outcome becomes debatable. Had there been a trained engineer present, and a disciplined force in January and February, obstacles could have been emplaced, etc. to aid this vital necessity. Mark, I've never said otherwise, back to one of my earlier posts (for the third time) ;D:
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Post by marklemon on Dec 13, 2008 20:29:08 GMT -5
Herb, Right you are...I stand corrected Mark
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Post by Herb on Dec 13, 2008 20:34:29 GMT -5
I don't see it this quite the same way as you, Herb. The evidence indicates the Mexicans were detected by the garrison before they reached the walls. If you recall, both DLP and General Filisola stated the soldados foolishly began cheering and shouting "Viva Santa Anna" and "Viva Mexico" prior to Santa Anna giving the go-ahead signal. The defenders were alerted and, as we know, the Mexicans paid for their enthusiasm. In regard to the Mexicans reaching the walls "unimpeded," wouldn't the cannon and rifle fire from the Alamo constitute an impedance? And what about the acequia outside the north wall, how would that effect hundreds of rushing troops packed in attack columns - in the dark and under fire? Do we know how deep the north acequia was? Glenn Glenn, there was no impedance. According to Joe the garrison wasn't even alerted until the Mexicans were already at the wall. There were no obstacles emplaced, no firing lines marked. Nothing done, that wasn't already there. The acequia should have been reinforced and been a major obstacle. When the Mexicans diverted the water out of it, nobody in the garrison apparently saw it as anything bu trying to divert water from the garrison. The very real intent though was to allow the acequia to drain and begin to dry out reducing its effect as obstacle. Mark is right, the garrison should have emplaced abatis, they should have reinforced the acequia. They should have marked firing lines and ranges, but they didn't. The Mexican Army was effectivily able to move through the Texian's engagement area without a shot fired and not one obstacle to breech - basically an umimpeded march to the walls.
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Post by elcolorado on Dec 13, 2008 23:02:14 GMT -5
I see your point, Mark, and it may of played-out that way...hard to say for sure. Baugh was almost certainly raising the alarm and screaming at the top of his lungs on the way to get Travis, thereby alerting others.
And I get the impression there were at least a few men up on the walls, albeit drowsy or possibly napping. I don't think all the defenders were asleep in the barracks. According to DLP and Filisola, the cannon from the Alamo ripped into Duque's attack column shortly after the "Viva's" began. If the Mexican accounts are accurate, that tells me the cannons were loaded, the linstock or match was hot, and the gun-crews awake. I mean, who's to say the cheering Mexicans didn't alert some of the garrison other than Baugh?
I think by the time Travis and Joe were aroused from there sleep, gathered their weapons, put on their boots, (or whatever else they needed to do) and got to the north wall, the gun-crews were already firing on the attack columns.
There is another comment DLP made in reference to the initial assault. "Shortly after beginning the march they were ordered to open fire while they were still out of range, but there were some officers who wisely disregarded the signal." "The enemy vigorously returned our fire, which had not even touched him but had retarded out advance."
Now, when I read that passage, it sounds like to me the Mexicans had not yet reached the walls. In fact, it appears at least some units or companies stopped to shoot their muskets at the defenders they saw on the wall. I mean why stop to shoot (while out of range, no less) unless there is someone to shoot at? So it appears to me the garrison responded rather quickly in spite of being surprised.
We also have to remember that the fire from the Alamo was such that it forced the assaulting columns to deviate from their planned course of attack. So for that to occur, somebody other than Baugh, Travis, and Joe had to be awake and on the wall.
Glenn
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Dec 14, 2008 10:56:00 GMT -5
Here's a thought -- and it's just speculation on my part -- but isn't it possible that the Mexican forces could have reached the wall, pretty much undetected (the front of the assault force, and still drawn fire (cannon, etc.) directed at the middle and back of the force at the same time?
This was a force with more depth than just a front line. There were more soldiers in ranks behind them. Any observations of cannon fire and such at the outset of the fire doesn't mean that some of the Mexican force weren't already at the walls.
Like I said, I'm thinking out loud, here, but I think it's not only possible, but very probable, and may have been the case when the attack began.
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Post by elcolorado on Dec 14, 2008 12:00:22 GMT -5
I get what you're saying. Paul. And sure, it's possible. The one thing I've learned about studying the particulars of the Alamo siege is to keep an open mind. In regard to my comments, I'm simply attempting to interpret the statements made by DLP and General Filisola.
My take on the initial assault has the attack columns in position and awaiting Santa Anna to give the signal to go forward. The plan was to race to the walls - undetected - place the ladders against the walls, climb up the ladders and capture the walls before the garrison could mount a defense. But it didn't work out that way.
It is my understanding the Mexicans erupted into cheering before the attack signal (rockets and bugle) was given. The assault columns remained in position momentarily until Santa Anna gave the nod to launch the attack. Once the signal rockets were fired and the bugle sounded the columns surged forward. But by this time the "surprise" was spoiled. The Alamo garrison was now alerted and opened up on the charging Mexicans.
The soldados carrying the ladders were most likely in front of the assault columns so that they could have the ladders in place when the attackers reached the walls. This makes sense because Santa Anna was counting on two things when planning this assault - stealth and speed. It wouldn't make much sense for the Mexicans to race to the walls and not have any ladders in position for them to climb. But, according to DLP, that's exactly what happened. DLP states that hardly any of the ladders the Mexicans brought with them made it to the walls. If this is true, that indicates to me the unfortunate Mexicans in the front of the assault columns were the ones to receive the initial bursts of cannon and rifle fire from the defenders on the wall.
This isn't to say that my interpretation is without error, but if we go by the information left to us from DLP and Filisola, then I would have to say its close.
Glenn
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Post by bobdurham on Dec 14, 2008 13:18:45 GMT -5
In reply to BluesDog's post, "isn't it possible that the Mexican forces could have reached the wall, pretty much undetected (the front of the assault force, and still drawn fire (cannon, etc.) directed at the middle and back of the force at the same time?" Sanchez Navarro's plan of attack for Cos' column shows the three lines right behind each other. However, normally an attack was made with supporting lines far enough behind the front line of the column to allow each line room to maneuver, change direction, etc. So I think BluesDog makes an excellent point -- the middle and rear ranks of the column may have reached the wall much later than the front rank. That would have allowed them time to properly support the front rank, rather than simply to pile up against them at the wall. Eventually, according to DLP, they did that but I doubt that was what was planned.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Dec 14, 2008 14:59:44 GMT -5
I do agree with Glenn, though, about the cheers, and such. I've read that, too, and -- of course -- it's the various accounts of the battle that we largely rely on to establish the "facts" of this event. I'm sure that bugles, flares, and shoots would have awakened the men, but allowing for the defenders' response time and the quick surge forward by the Mexicans, I'm thinking a good many were at the walls before much was hurled back at the Mexicans. We will never know, of course, and that's the beauty of these sorts of discussions.
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Post by rodrigjose on Mar 29, 2021 18:43:50 GMT -5
compare the battle of little bighorn to the alamo battle, strangely both are about the same as some of the command above, Major Reno, let troops and they form a battle line but they had to retreat to the wood lines, there everything went to pots, reno panic and order a withdraw and it was a rout of his company, capt Keogh had a battle line also, but they were overrun and they made a run for Custer hill, were wiped out, Custer had around 90 troops with him but around 40 made a dash for the deep ravine and they were routed there, Custer men were just wipe out, all these men were not cowards, just too many Mexicans, and Indians, and the leaders were killed or they panic, so it was every man for themself and try to live for another day, not all of them but some othem. when you are under fire it is a difference song. Marine vet nam 68-69
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