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Post by Jim Boylston on May 19, 2007 15:08:50 GMT -5
If so, that was one lucky round, since Travis reportedly fell immediately after discharging it. Could be, though. Another point I mentioned to Wolfpack in a PM that we might consider is this business of the walls being virtually unmanned. I'm not so sure we can assume this was an aberration. How do we know this wasn't par for the course during the siege, and that Santa Anna wasn't well aware of the situation? Jim
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Post by stuart on May 19, 2007 15:19:38 GMT -5
Well what makes me wonder, is why Travis thought it necessary to lean over the wall and shoot down - fatally exposing himself in the process - if not to deal with a very clear and present danger, ie; the Mexicans actually mounting the wall by way of a ladder just as Joe describes.
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 19, 2007 15:28:28 GMT -5
I'm sure you're right. The Mexicans were at the base of the wall preparing to climb...already under the guns for the most part. Why did Travis skylight himself? Inexperience, recklessness, anxiety, a combination of the lot. His shot may have contributed to the Toluca's taking the artillery hit, but I'd say it was a bad decision, nonetheless. Jim
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Post by Herb on May 19, 2007 16:32:57 GMT -5
Sometimes the only choices to decide on are bad and worse! If this was indeed the situation, Travis' only choices were to lean over and take that shot, or to let the soldatos swarm over the wall. It may have been reckless, but the other choice was even more dangerous. In short, I'm not too sure - at this point Travis has a real choice.
Now other, earlier decisions, that's another story!
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 19, 2007 18:00:38 GMT -5
I wonder too, if leaning over the wall was what got him killed. Being sillhouetted on that wall made him a prime target for sharpshooters that were sure to have been in position already. I'd recommend everyone read Bob Durham's article from the Alamo Journal on the north wall defense. He paints a vivid picture of the way the Mexican army attacked. Jim
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Post by bhist on May 25, 2007 13:14:26 GMT -5
This is a fascinating discussion, especially regarding Morales column. I think you might be interested in reading Eric von Schmidt’s take on this portion of the fight included in his number key to “Storming of the Alamo.” When you read it, please keep in mind that Eric wrote this back in the 80s. It’s at this link – www.vonsworks.com/alamo-number-key.htm - scroll down to number 9.
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 25, 2007 14:33:38 GMT -5
Thanks for that link, Bob. It had been a while since I'd read Eric's comments, and I think he's probably on the money about Morales's movements (although I think Morales was in the fort before the north wall was penetrated). I also think his reasoning about the cannons in the lunette being withdrawn at night is sound. Sadly, I've never seen the painting. I didn't realize it was in San Antonio. Hopefully it will still be there on my next visit, and I'll make visitng a priority. Jim
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Post by Herb on May 25, 2007 21:46:50 GMT -5
Thanks, Bob, I haven't read that in a while. Considering where the story was, when he was painting it, Eric was really ahead of his time.
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Post by Herb on Mar 1, 2009 11:23:05 GMT -5
A suggestion to all members and guests, if you have the opportunity and can get away from street lights, etc. Go outside at about 6:00 AM, someday this week the 173rd anniversary of the battle and take a good look around. Shortly after 6:00 this morning on a partly cloudy day with the temperature in the high 20s (that's for Bill Chemerka so he'll feel comfortable) I took some time to look things over. To my North about 3-400 yards away is a large hay barn, everything that had the sky as background (sky lined) was clearly visible the roof, electric poles, etc. Coming in to about 170 yards, a fence row at ground level was barely detectable, but could be seen with ease with binoculars. At about 40 yards a cattle herd was grazing - but only the black mass of the herd was detectable with the naked eye. Individuals could not be made out unless widely separated from the herd (or column ;D ). At about 15 - 20 yards everything was visible to the naked eye. Now, I wasn't about climb up on my roof and look down, but from experience know that this significantly reduces both what can be detected (ie that black mass moves a lot closer and there are very few individuals) and the ability to actually aim a weapon. It's an experiment that I think is well worth repeating and is most "illuminating" about the battle of the Alamo. It also provides a great quiet time to reflect on those events.
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Post by stuart on Mar 1, 2009 12:14:07 GMT -5
Now, I wasn't about climb up on my roof and look down, but from experience know that this significantly reduces both what can be detected (ie that black mass moves a lot closer and there are very few individuals) and the ability to actually aim a weapon. I'll second that one. Something I very rapidly learned back in the day was the importance of frequently crouching down in order to lower the skyline and thus see things (sometimes the heathen) which were otherwise hidden against the land and anything on it.
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Post by billchemerka on Mar 1, 2009 13:18:05 GMT -5
Shortly after 6:00 this morning on a partly cloudy day with the temperature in the high 20s (that's for Bill Chemerka so he'll feel comfortable) I took some time to look things over. A True-ism if there ever was one! Alas, it is good to be thought of as a blizzard approaches from the south along the Atlantic coast. We here where Crockett first fired "Pretty Betsey" long for those forthcoming 80-degree Bexar temperatures. As to the topic at hand: An inexact 30-minute gray zone ("When Did the Attack Begin?") compounds assessments of the March 6 battle. For example, lighting is fundamentally different an hour before dawn as compared and contrasted to a half-hour before dawn -- and assuming that the cloud cover (or lack thereof) is uniform throughout the sky. Furthermore, a view into the east from the the horse coral is quite different from a view from a West Wall gun emplacment looking west. Also, the field of vision by those who had been awake as opposed to the who were suddenly awakened incrassates this discussion.
As such, multiple scenarios are possible, and the jury will always be out regarding the metaphysical certitude of this most interesting topic.
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Post by elcolorado on Mar 1, 2009 16:12:37 GMT -5
If we're trying to get a sense as to the lighting conditions at the moment of the attack March 6, shouldn't we be looking at the available light at 5:00am?
Glenn
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Post by Herb on Mar 1, 2009 16:27:02 GMT -5
I seriously doubt it, Glenn.
Go back to the top of the topic, almost every account specifies that the fighting ended at sunrise or 6:54 AM (using today's standardized time). Accounts of the duration of the battle generally falls in the 30 - 90 minute range, with somewhat of a consensus of around 60 minutes. Plus DLP, provides a pretty strong indication that the sky was already lightening - which seems to collaborate that the attack began around 6:00 AM (see the chart).
As Bill, says there are variables such as cloud cover - which may move the attack to an even later start time. and the conditions will vary, depending which direction your facing, but that is almost insignificant unless you're facing east at true sunrise.
I've been thinking that the attack began about 5:50 when it was still technically dark, but again looking at DLP's statement it was already gray. That, plus I'm wondering if some soldato shouted "viva Santanna", because he noticed for the first time, in the gray of morning twilight Santa Anna and staff from his attack position?
To me all this spells out an attack at 6:00 AM at the earliest.
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Post by elcolorado on Mar 1, 2009 17:10:59 GMT -5
Right!! I forgot there weren't time-zones back then. OK, that makes sense. Thanks!
Glenn
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Post by Hiram on Mar 4, 2009 23:09:53 GMT -5
I was at the Alamo this morning at 5:30am in order to check the lighting as twilight approached. Bad idea. All I saw was the Crockett Hotel, the Menger, the Rivercenter Mall, the Grand Hyatt, etc.
So I drove about 1000 yards east by south (sound familiar?) and stood in Alamo Masonic Cemetery (29.25277,-98.28181, elevation 750 feet) looking east. Still quite a bit of light pollution but a much better field of vision.
I first noticed a change in the horizon at 6:10am. Bearing in mind, there was no light pollution in 1836, Mexican soldiers could probably detect nautical twilight (geometric center of the Sun 12° below the horizon) about 6:05am.
Using de la Pena's description as quoted above, the attack began shortly after 6am.
This evening I used a solar calculator to check my estimate. Nautical twilight began this morning at 6:03:47.
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