First Images

[alamonorth]

Crockett defending the palisade has become a standard scene in art and film. Does anyone know if there is an explicit depiction of this prior to the Onderdonk painting

[Allen Wiener]

I went through "Alamo Images" and cannot find one earlier than Onderdonk. Also, in Onderdonk's painting, Crockett is not really at the palisade at all; he is in front of the main gate as Mexicans come poring through it.

[davidpenrod]

Where did the whole Crockett defending the palisade wall come from? Would Travis have really assigned him a specific position? In his dispatches, Travis describes Crockett as almost everywhere during action.

[Allen Wiener]

The only source for this than I recall is Sutherland's account, but Sutherland left the Alamo on the first day of the siege, so he had no idea where Crockett was after that. However, combined with Susannah Dickinson's statement that she saw his body on her way out of the Alamo lying somewhere between the church and the main gate, suggesting he was in the area of the palisade.

[Herb]

I would emphasize that the Sutherland account was where "Davy" was on the 23rd, when Sutherland left. The Travis letter about the skirmish emphasizes that people are not stone statues standing in one place. I believe there is strong circumstantial evidence that Crockett lived in the southern Castenada house on the West Wall during the siege. I find the Ruiz and Potter accounts of his body along the West Wall the most believable.

Given what we know of the breakout attempts today, if Crockett was at the palisade on the 6th, I believe his body would have been outside the Alamo with those defenders.

[Allen Wiener]

I have found this to be a more persuasive scenario than the palisade argument for Crockett. I know we discussed this somewhere a long time ago and there are good arguments for suggesting Crockett was quartered along the northern part of the west wall somewhere, where the officers appear to have been quartered, including Bowie until he had to be moved and quarantined. With most of the garrison asleep when the final assault began, it is reasonable to suggest that Crockett's first instinct, once awakened, would be to go to the nearby north wall and join the effort to repel the attack there. This comports with the location of his body in that vicinity, near Travis' body, as Ruiz and Potter stated. No doubt Travis would have made a lot of adjustments to his defense as the siege wore on, as Mexican emplacements went up, and when the Mexican reinforcements arrived on March 3. The palisade area was probably least in need of defense priority due to the obstacles placed in front of it and the Mexican knowledge of the fort's layout. The courtyard was a trap and didn't lead anywhere. Morales' attack on the SW corner and 18-pounder makes much more sense and, of course, offered cover from the Charlie house. I don't buy that Morales attacked that position merely by chance or as a fallback after being driven from the palisade area; I think it was his objective all along, as was securing the main gate.

I hadn't thought of the breakouts and their proximity to the palisade, but that's equally persuasive. in fact, there may not have been much fighting in the courtyard in front of the church or casualties there. Anyone in that area would likely have joined the breakout or sought temporary refuge in the church.

[Bill Yowell]

Whatever Susannah saw on her exit of the Alamo was understandably viewed through the eyes of severe shock. She had just moments before lost her husband and coupled with that was the brutal carnage she would have seen on her exit. The identification of mutilated bodies seen from the eyes of someone in total despair leaves much room for error. Noting the peculiar hat near a body would force an assumption that only Crockett wore a particular hat of that sort. While Crockett may have been initially assigned to defend the palisade, it is well documented that he was all over the place. To me it was his nature to go to where the action was and where he was most needed. Just my opinion, but even if by chance Crockett was the last combatant alive at the end of the siege, he would have been found just in front of or just inside the church doors protecting the non combatant women and children with his final efforts. I don't believe he would have made any effort to escape through the palisade area for this reason.

[Chuck T]

I don't recall, I believe this bit of testimony from Mrs. Dickinson is contained in Hansen, but my copy is packed away at present. The basement library is finally getting a facelift.

In what context was this testimony given and to whom. As Allen and Herb both know there were a lot of tall tales, and severe fudging of the truth, by the officers of the Seventh Cavalry, made mainly for the consumption of the mothers, wives, and sweethearts on the condition of the body of "their " officer. Everyone else was mutilated. Not "their" officer. "Their" officer made a heroic stand with hostile bodies and shell casing piled high around his heroic form and eventually a painless and noble death overtook him. Mrs. Calhoun in particular was subject to copious amounts of soft soap.

So one of you who has this bit of testimony well at hand, check this context and post it please. I am not usually that lazy, but there are fifty boxes down there full of books waiting for the completion of the shelves and I really don't want to get into that at the present. Thanks

I think Crockett was just where Ruiz said he was.

[Herb]

Not ignoring you, Chuck, just not enough time to get out Hansen. She gave multiple accounts to where Crockett was. The most reliable ie probably not enhanced by the reporter is her statement to the Texas Adjutant General where she said Crockett was killedshe believes

[Chuck T]

Herb: It was a romantic age>People did things with the best of intention, and I intend to leave it at that. In the end it does not matter where he died. He died doing his duty as he saw that duty to be.

[Allen Wiener]

That's true, Chuck. Still, we can't seem to stop puzzling over these Alamo "mysteries," as with the LBH.

Dickinson's statement regarding Crockett's body being seen between the church and the two-story barrack was made rather late in the game -- it appears in James M. Morphis' 1874 book History of Texas from Its Discovery and Settlement. . . . By that time she had survived prostitution, abusive marriages, and had finally found a secure marriage with Hannig. So, she was looking back on nearly 40 years when she made the statement. The quotation is:

"I recognized Col. Crockett lying dead and mutilated between the church and the two story barrack building, and even remember seeing his peculiar cap lying by his side."

It is in this interview that she mentions Crockett playing the fiddle, which he may or may not have done, although there isn't any evidence of that that I know of, beyond her statement.

This is on pp. 45-46 in Hansen. He adds the note: "Aside from quotation marks, it is not clear from the book's layout when the testimony of Mrs. Hannig ends and further text by Morphis continues. The last definite first-person statement is that about Crockett, fourth paragraph from the end of this excerpt" (which is the paragraph I quoted from, above).

In this statement, she also quotes Crockett as saying several times during the siege that he'd rather go out and die in the open, rather than being hemmed in. However, in a much earlier statement (March 8, 1860) she attributes that statement to Henry Warnell.

The statement to the Adjutant General that Herb refers to was made on September 23, 1876. This entire interview is paraphrased and is not in quotation marks, and summarizes what Susannah said. It states "Col. Crockett was one of the 3 men who came into the Fort during the siege & before the assault. He was killed, she believes."

It also states that "She knew Col. Bowie & saw him in the Fort, both before and after his death. He was sick before and during the fight, and had even been expected to die."

I think most of her statements were embellished by those reporting them, but agree with Herb that this sounds like the closest to what she actually must have said.

[Chuck T]

Thanks Allen.

[alamonorth]

Just to get this thread back on track, does anyone know of any Bowie death scenes prior to the late 1890's; and apart from the generic battle scene in the 1837 book by Niles, when was the first actual depiction of Travis's death.

[Allen Wiener]

Newspapers carried various descriptions of their deaths as soon as the fall of the Alamo was reported.

[alamonorth]

Yes, but when was this information first put into visual form. Did history create artistic Alamo images or did artists create our perception of history. Sorry about the confusion but what I was trying to do was to discover the very first visual images ( in drawings, book illustrations, paintings or film images) of various iconic Alamo scenes.