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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 8, 2010 16:35:19 GMT -5
Meanwhile, back at the Deguello.... ;D
El Soldado Mexicano (1958, Mexico) refers to a total of 70 bugle calls with "name and number" for the cavalry and infantry and further states, "there were 57 calls common to both branches, 9 special cavalry and 4 special light infantry calls."
At another point in the work, it says, "Cavalry trumpet calls were: Saddle or General Call, Groups, Assembly, To Horse, March, Fall In, Honor Roll, Reveille or Prayer, Attention, Rest, Trot, Gallop, About Turn, To Order, Attack or Beheading, Halt, Retreat or Tattoo. Of these calls, the Deguello -- Beheading or Destruction -- was sounded only at the culmination of a charge when 80 paces from the enemy." [First italics mine; second italics as published].
From this military history by J. Hefter (albeit latter day), I am getting that the Deguello had an even more specific use than other bugle calls, thus less likely to be used out of context.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 8, 2010 16:47:07 GMT -5
ON THE OTHER HAND, she had warts. (Sorry, my dad used to say that! ) On the other hand, I have heard Mexican band music that has indeed incorporated bugle call melodies in a *suite* of martial music. So, perhaps it was possible for Santa Anna to have his military band literally *accompany* the battle with the Deguello, as per tradition and Alamo: The Price of Freedom, or *seranade* the defenders as in The Alamo (2004). I doubt if the Texians would have understood the implication. Still, as infamous as the Deguello supposedly was, I'm at a loss to understand why NONE OF THE MEXICAN EYEWITNESSES COMMENTED ON IT.
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Post by marklemon on Aug 8, 2010 17:54:58 GMT -5
A large portion of the captured Mexican baggage was burnt on April 23 (see Moore page 390) what remained was auctioned off on April 26 (Moore, 394). There can be little doubt that a large portion of valuable papers, and booty not just from the Mexican Army but the Alamo itself disappeared in these two events. Of the major commanders that participated in the Alamo that should have submitted after action reports only Sesma and Morales were not captured at San Jacinto. Perhaps this is one reason only Sesma's report has been found (and even this is basically a "certified copy" and not the original - was the original with Santa Anna?). Rereading some portions of Davis' Three Roads I came across the nugget that Travis's commision as the Texas Lieutentant Colonel of cavalry was in the Mexican archives, this with the missing Williamson letter implies to me that at least Travis's captured papers survived and are in Mexican Archives. I wonder if its possible they've been overlooked by researchers simply because they were looking for Mexican records and not captured Texian ones? I really think that by April 23, these official after action documents were long gone, and on their way to Mexico. The Battalion commanders should have submitted their reports within a couple of weeks at the most after the battle. These documents would likely have either remained with the army's main body, or been sent back to Mexico, probably sometime in March. I doubt very seriously if these important reports would have been carried, over a month and a half later, with Santa Anna's smaller advance force trying to head off Houston. By late April, Santa Anna, even in the unlikely (to me) event that he had originally left San Antonio with these official documents, would have had plenty of time to have read them, and have them sent back via courier to the main body, and thence to Mexico. There is always a chance that these official reports were at San Jacinto, but for the reasons stated, the percentages are against it. Of course, this still leaves the officers' personal papers, letters home, diaries, etc, which would have been the most likely documents captured at San Jacinto. It is an arguable point that these more personal documents may have been even more accurate or revealing.
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 8, 2010 20:28:52 GMT -5
Meanwhile, back at the Deguello.... ;D El Soldado Mexicano (1958, Mexico) refers to a total of 70 bugle calls with "name and number" for the cavalry and infantry and further states, "there were 57 calls common to both branches, 9 special cavalry and 4 special light infantry calls." At another point in the work, it says, "Cavalry trumpet calls were: Saddle or General Call, Groups, Assembly, To Horse, March, Fall In, Honor Roll, Reveille or Prayer, Attention, Rest, Trot, Gallop, About Turn, To Order, Attack or Beheading, Halt, Retreat or Tattoo. Of these calls, the Deguello -- Beheading or Destruction -- was sounded only at the culmination of a charge when 80 paces from the enemy." [First italics mine; second italics as published]. From this military history by J. Hefter (albeit latter day), I am getting that the Deguello had an even more specific use than other bugle calls, thus less likely to be used out of context. Which would mean right after you dipped lancers or sabers Deguello was played. That would have the desired effect. Potter pretty much (in the 1870's account) has it that the Deguello was sounded after the call to attack was given--and not before then or after (so, no night time playing before the battle, or during the siege). As we have discussed before, it would be nice to have some Mexican or contemporary source mention Deguello being played. I have to expand some of what Richard suggests--no one seems mentionsDeguello at any other Texas Rev battle-would the defenders have any idea what it meant?
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 8, 2010 20:52:39 GMT -5
Wasn't there an item in one of the accounts ( ) saying that the Texians captured a soldado on one of their sallies (Don't say it, Gary! , and that he literally translated the bugle calls for them? If so, it seems pretty dumb to have trusted him. Regardless, it seems pretty dumb to play a piece for the enemy with a plan to frighten them if they are not going to know what it means. Mexican officers surely would have, soldados probably would, the Tejanos in the Alamo? I would even doubt that they would. The anglos? Huh-uh. Out of context, a trumpet-playing of it just wouldn't have been that chilling. Even the full band version wouldn't have been scary -- unless they had a Max Steiner or Dimitri Tiomkin to adapt and orchestrate it.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 8, 2010 21:08:42 GMT -5
Regarding the assumption of Deguello's chilling quality, I have in the past proposed a theory that we actually have TWO versions of the Deguello that were written as separate parts for the band or even just two trumpets, that, when played together, brought a dissonant and sinister quality to the piece, thus providing its chill factor.
Check out the version pictured in A Time To Stand. It has different notation than the version we all know from Ordinanza Militar.... (I think that's part of the title). The latter of these is what you hear in POF and Alamo04. Very straight forward. The former is from El Soldado Mexicano and differs on certain notes by a half step from the other one. If anybody has a copy of my Alamo documentary shot during Alamo 162, listen to the version I had performed and recorded for the film. I had my trumpeter perform both versions to the same meter and then mixed them together. It definitely chills you a bit when it goes dissonant for a moment and then resolves. (Much of this Deguello is mixed under battle sounds, but I made sure it comes clean once in a while so you can here this quality.) Pitched the idea to Carter Burwell, but he already had the plan to slow it down and add the Billy Bob Crockett counterpoint melody -- and I'm soooo glad. ;D
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 8, 2010 21:53:18 GMT -5
Regarding the assumption of Deguello's chilling quality, I have in the past proposed a theory that we actually have TWO versions of the Deguello that were written as separate parts for the band or even just two trumpets, that, when played together, brought a dissonant and sinister quality to the piece, thus providing its chill factor. Check out the version pictured in A Time To Stand. It has different notation than the version we all know from Ordinanza Militar.... (I think that's part of the title). The latter of these is what you hear in POF and Alamo04. Very straight forward. The former is from El Soldado Mexicano and differs on certain notes by a half step from the other one. If anybody has a copy of my Alamo documentary shot during Alamo 162, listen to the version I had performed and recorded for the film. I had my trumpeter perform both versions to the same meter and then mixed them together. It definitely chills you a bit when it goes dissonant for a moment and then resolves. (Much of this Deguello is mixed under battle sounds, but I made sure it comes clean once in a while so you can here this quality.) Pitched the idea to Carter Burwell, but he already had the plan to slow it down and add the Billy Bob Crockett counterpoint melody -- and I'm soooo glad. ;D I will never forget when Steve Beck let me into the Long Barracks at 5AM on 3/6/1986. As we walked around, the guys who were going to be playing the Deguello at the dawn ceremony tried a practice run--talk about chilling. Charlie Davis was our period music man on APF.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 8, 2010 23:24:30 GMT -5
I will never forget when Steve Beck let me into the Long Barracks at 5AM on 3/6/1986. As we walked around, the guys who were going to be playing the Deguello at the dawn ceremony tried a practice run--talk about chilling. Charlie Davis was our period music man on APF. Wow! I can imagine. I was in the Alamo church last year during the reenactments and was so engrossed I forgot what was going on. Then a cannon boomed out front! Boy did my imagination reel. I've heard lots of cannons boom at the Waynamo for reenactments and movies, and at Dripping Springs, but nothing like that one through the walls.
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Post by Herb on Aug 9, 2010 11:13:06 GMT -5
At another point in the work, it says, "Cavalry trumpet calls were: Saddle or General Call, Groups, Assembly, To Horse, March, Fall In, Honor Roll, Reveille or Prayer, Attention, Rest, Trot, Gallop, About Turn, To Order, Attack or Beheading, Halt, Retreat or Tattoo. Of these calls, the Deguello -- Beheading or Destruction -- was sounded only at the culmination of a charge when 80 paces from the enemy." [First italics mine; second italics as published]. That is obviously similar to the standard cavalry attack and bugle calls in every nation. The attack almost always began with FORWARD (at a walk) then moved in sequence to TROT, GALLOP, and CHARGE (US). Rich, from what you're describing, it sounds impossible for the DEGUELLO to not have been played during the breakouts and the cavalry action. While it may or may not have been played in the traditional way we think about it, I think you have convincingly shown that it was played at least as a bugle call to the cavalry on March 6th.
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Post by ajdrake4 on Aug 24, 2010 15:39:05 GMT -5
Does anybody know where I could listen to a version of the real Deguello? I've heard the versions in The Wayne Alamo movie and the 2004 version, and from what I understand they are either heavily modified or music specifically composed for the movie. I've always been curious as to what it really sounds like.
While it may not have been used as the movies portray it, I think Rich is right about it being used as a bugle call. That makes sense.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 24, 2010 15:58:04 GMT -5
From Music of the Alamo: "Ray Herbeck, Jr., the Associate Producer of Alamo…The Price of Freedom, also produced an historical album on cassette in 1989 titled Remember the Alamo! – Mexican & Texian Music of 1836. Herbeck, who played rhythm guitar on the collection, recruited musicians who specialized in period music. Using such instruments as the fife, recorder, mandolin, fiddle, bagpipes and wooden flute, Herbeck and his musical comrades carefully replicated such historical compositions as 'The Girl I Left Behind,' 'Old Rosin the Bow,' and 'The Deguello.'"
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Post by ajdrake4 on Aug 24, 2010 16:05:40 GMT -5
Thanks, I'll have to see if I can get a hold of a copy.
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 24, 2010 21:03:06 GMT -5
Thanks, I'll have to see if I can get a hold of a copy. Also on the soundtrack to Alamo The Price of Freedom...not sure if they are still selling the and the San Antonio IMAX. The Herbeck tape is excellent by the way! Ray did a great job.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 24, 2010 22:41:49 GMT -5
When I was there last year they were still selling both the cassette and CD editions.
Agree with you on Herbeck; too bad that was only issued on a cassette that's not easy to find.
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 25, 2010 13:15:29 GMT -5
From Music of the Alamo: "Ray Herbeck, Jr., the Associate Producer of Alamo…The Price of Freedom, also produced an historical album on cassette in 1989 titled Remember the Alamo! – Mexican & Texian Music of 1836. Herbeck, who played rhythm guitar on the collection, recruited musicians who specialized in period music. Using such instruments as the fife, recorder, mandolin, fiddle, bagpipes and wooden flute, Herbeck and his musical comrades carefully replicated such historical compositions as 'The Girl I Left Behind,' 'Old Rosin the Bow,' and 'The Deguello.'" This might be the single best 'anything' produced for the period. I wish I could download or get it on CD. My tape has long since gone the way of all flesh.
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