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Post by Chuck T on Jul 18, 2010 21:12:36 GMT -5
With all of the recent discussion on Crockett, in particularly how many of us "discovered" him as children on the Disney series and later in Wayne's Alamo. I thought it might be interesting to ask what draws us to Jim Bowie? By this I mean Bowie a person and a personality, not particularly a defender?
For me, and I am a board certified Bowie man, it was reading Wellman's "Iron Mistress" when I was about eleven and Hayden's portrayal of Bowie in the "Last Command".
Reading the book, and seeing the movie made me think of Bowie as the every man we want to be, not the everyman we are.
If you ever get a chance to see the movie the Iron Mistress, change the channel. They screwed up the story and the casting to play the two main characters was, well you know what it was. Alan Ladd as Bowie was almost as bad as Virginia Mayo as Judalon de Bornay
I have read the book a half a dozen times and plan to do so again soon. Wellman's three on Texas, including Magnificent Destiny and The Comancheros, are to me the holy grail of Texas fiction.
I recently watched Last Command for God knows the umteenth time, and it finally struck me in the knife fight episode with Borgnine, that Hayden did not learn his skills from an acting coach, rather his experience as an OSS operative in WWII are on display if one knows what to look for.
Anyway, please tell me if you are attracted to Bowie and if so why, and what generated it.
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Post by Bill Yowell on Jul 18, 2010 21:55:13 GMT -5
I'll try this post again. My introduction to Jim Bowie came as his character was portrayed in the Disney Series. To a nine or ten year old, he was just someone that was inside the walls along side of "Davy". His significance to me was that he was a character who was named, but I knew of no historical importance to his being. When I saw "Last Command" as a young lad, Bowies' stature and importance in my eyes grew substantially. It is still one of my favorite Alamo movies, and to this day I still love the ballad. As my love for the alamo story has grown over these many years, so has my adoration and respect for this rough and tumble "mans man".
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Post by martyb on Jul 18, 2010 23:36:01 GMT -5
There are many characters in history that we consider heroes and I like many others have my own (Mark Twain, George Washington, etc.).
I respect Bowie and his great courage. Many men - good, bad, evil or Saints - had courage. I believe that Bowie was a man of great charisma. He did not have, in my opinion a stable moral compass and I never forgot the old historians rejoiner "Don't look too close...you won't like him."
There was a dark streak in Bowie. When it suited him he would lie, cheat and steal. He liked the dollar regardless of the method of attainment. I wouldn't trust him with my wife or my money but I'd want him by my side in a fight.
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Post by Chuck T on Jul 18, 2010 23:35:53 GMT -5
By ballad I assume you mean the theme in the movie by Gordon MacRay? Here I though I was the only one in the civilized world who could ever love a piece of smaltz like that. But what would this old world be without a little bigger than life smaltz now and then. I liked it so much that I spent my weekly allowance and bought the 78rpm record. Gosh, I wish I had that today though I would be hard pressed to find something to play it on. I think thats why I watch the movie so many times to hear the music.
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Post by Chuck T on Jul 19, 2010 0:15:47 GMT -5
I have told this story only twice before, but this seems to be the appropriate time and place for the third telling.
My first trip to the Alamo was in the summer of 1963. On the way I stopped at Washington, Arkansas. I wanted to visit the James Black blacksmith shop that was restored. As I recall I stopped in mid-morning and no one was around. I looked around the outside and was ready to leave when this elderly lady came out of a house across the street and asked if she could help me.
We talked for I guess about a half an hour , her telling me of plan to restore some of the other buildings and so forth. When I directed the conversation back to the Bowie Knife she told me she had something she would like me to see that was a complete mystery to her. We went across the street to he house, which was quite old, Victorian I would say, She invited me into a spacious hallway. From a drawer in a large piece of furniture there in the hallway, I believe it was called a sideboard, she took a package loosely wraped in the brown paper that it was obviously delived in, and in the package was a Bowie Knife.
I am no judge of the age of weapons but it looked to my untrained eye as being from the proper period. OK so far nothing really strange. What she told me then is that it had arrived about a week before, no name, no note, no return address, only a postmark, which was Chicago, to indicate where it came from. I admired it, thanked her, and left.
Visiting the Alamo a day or so later, I met a woman from the DRT. I believe her name was McDowell. I believe she said that she was a former Army nurse, and had served in Italy during WWII. Those were pre-Hiram days when you just showed yourself around the Alamo. She answered quite a few of my questions, and took the time with a then young man who expressed an other than normal tourist interest. During the conversation I related the story of a few days before. She said and I will never forget it - Many years ago a Bowie Knife was stolen from the Alamo - I wonder - then she excused herself and the matter droped until 1979.
That year while on vacation with my family we stopped by Washington again. The place had changed completely. I enquired of the old lady, and the knife. The person I talked to, who seemed to be quite knowledgible said yes that was old Mrs. So and So, but knew absolutely nothing about a knife or the circumstances I described. Ithought that to be very strange, for even if it was not THE original, I would have thought they would have had it on display as a period piece. Nothing, I pressed him, but nothing.
So this is the third time. I know what I saw and experienced. Somehow I just wanted to get this on the record, for perhaps one of you knows something about what I always considered one of those strange interludes in life.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jul 19, 2010 0:27:38 GMT -5
Gosh, I wish I had that today though I would be hard pressed to find something to play it on. I think thats why I watch the movie so many times to hear the music. Chuck, it should be easy to find a copy of that song online somewhere. The following is from our book Music of the Alamo: From 19th Century Ballads to Big-Screen Soundtracks: "(1955) Last Command. Film score soundtrack composed by Max Steiner. A soundtrack album was released in 1980 (Citadel CT 7019), which included an 18-minute suite of music from the film on side one and music from the film Come Next Spring on side two. A European CD edition was released in 1995 (Best Records Nr. 9109W), which included the same 18-minute suite and other Max Steiner film music. The film’s theme, “(What a Man Was Six-Foot-Six) Jim Bowie” (Max Steiner, Sidney Clare, Sheila MacRae), was performed by Gordon MacRae and the soundtrack version was released on the Last Command album. A second recording by MacRae was released on a 45 rpm single “Jim Bowie”/“Why Break the Heart That Loves You” in 1956 (Capitol F 3191). That recording also was included on the 1999 CD Wand’rin Star (Bear Family Records BCD 16166 AR) and was a bonus track on the 2006 3 Sailors and a Girl soundtrack CD (Sepia Records). Another song from the film, “Consuela,” was released on the LP Great Love Themes from Motion Picturesby Max Steiner and his orchestra (RCA LPM 1170). The film also included the song “Yo M'alegro de Haber,” sung by Anna Maria Alberghetti, which has never been released on disc." As to my own interest in Bowie, it stemmed from his being introduced in the Disney "Davy Crockett" series, played by Ken Tobey. Interest in Crockett and the Alamo quickly led to interest in Bowie. I recall doing a book report on Shannon Garst's book about him and later reading "The Iron Mistress" and "The Tempered Blade" (which was ostensibly the basis of "The Adventures of Jim Bowie" TV series starring Scott Forbes), and also reading Bowie's Lost Mine, a tiny book that I still have. I did not see Last Command until many years later on TV. I became interested in the Bowie Knife, largely due to an infatuation with the Iron Mistress prop knife (or, more accurately, knives) that made so many film appearances, beginning with the Alan Ladd film and continuing through Disney's "Davy Crockett at the Alamo," the Bowie TV series, Last Command, and Wayne's The Alamo. But, after reading Davis's Three Roads to the Alamo I have to agree that my impression of Bowie is, at best, a mixed one. There is no doubting his courage and leadership ability, but, as Stephen Harrigan once put it, of all the Alamo defenders, he was the last one you'd trust with your grandmother's savings. Still, a very interesting, mercurial and elusive historical figure. By the way, I just (finally!) got DVDs of The Iron Mistress and The First Texan, but haven't had a chance to watch them yet. I saw Iron Mistress only once, many years ago on TV, and recall being very disappointed that the film ended prior to the Alamo and with the famous knife dumped in the drink. Allen
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jul 19, 2010 0:31:23 GMT -5
Chuck - fascinating story regarding that Bowie knife. Joe Musso might know something about it; he's the most knowledgeable person I know about Bowie and the knife.
Allen
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Jul 19, 2010 5:44:33 GMT -5
For me, it was "The Adventures of Jim Bowie" on TV, although I really don't remember too much about it these many years later. The more lasting impression, for me, came from Wayne's "Alamo." What was the impact of the Disney "Crockett" series? Pretty much all Fess/"Crockett" and Buddy/"Georgie". I didn't even remember there being a Bowie character in it, although obviously there was one.
Fascinating yarn about the knife in the package in the sideboard. One can only imagine ...
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jul 19, 2010 8:44:12 GMT -5
Chuck; any recollection of what that knife looked like? Did it resemble any of these? Allen P.S. It won't be that middle one; that's the movie "Iron Mistress" prop knife. The bottom one is the famous Joe Musso Bowie Knife, which has been carbon dated to the 1830s.
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Post by marklemon on Jul 19, 2010 9:41:41 GMT -5
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Post by Herb on Jul 19, 2010 9:53:42 GMT -5
If Three Roads is the only book you read abour Bowie, I think you'll develop a very wrong impression of the man. Davis' book is one of the best out there, but I think he developed a dislike and disdain for Bowie that very much comes through. I can't see how any man could have liked or respected Bowie, neverthe less voluntarily followed him into battle.
I think Jack Edmondson's The Alamo Story provides a much better balanced account. While Jack doesn't ignore the warts, he does a better job of placing them in context. The portrait of Bowie that Jack paints is a man that I would we grateful to have as a leader in a desperate cause.
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Post by Kevin Young on Jul 19, 2010 10:10:30 GMT -5
Never was a Bowie fan.
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Post by Chuck T on Jul 19, 2010 10:19:51 GMT -5
Allen: Remember I am going back forty seven years here.
The knife I saw most closely resembled the third one on size and shape. It did not have, at least as far as I recall the brass insert along the top of the blade, but it could have been there and I just didn't notice/remember it. The handle was much more conventional. The finish was crude, worn or both. Outherwise it is a dead ringer
The overall condition of the knife was more in line with the first photo, and appeared not to have been well maintained.
I very well could have been one of those Civil War era copies you see in so many of the pictures taken of soldiers in a studio. In fact the knife could have been produced any time up to the end of the Civil War. I don't think so though. I would put my memory and my money that it dated from the 1830's-40's. The mystery to me is not so much the knife but the circumstances of its arrival at the blacksmith shop in Arkansas without a shred of explanation, along with its disappearance.
This whole thing reminds me of Excaliber being returned to the lake
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jul 19, 2010 10:41:33 GMT -5
There's a contemporary sketch of Houston whittling with a knife that looks like the Musso Bowie, so it's even more interesting to learn of the knife you saw at Black's that resembled it. That's a remarkable story, really.
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Post by Chuck T on Jul 19, 2010 11:30:11 GMT -5
Allen: The house could have been the Block-Catts House where I was taken by the lady. There is a picture on the web site, but it also says that it was restored to its original appearance later than 1963. I have it fixed in my mind though that it was more Victorian than Federalist. It makes sense though, for I recall when I told the story in 1979 that the lady in question was evidently deeply involved in the restoration. So it was not her home at all, although it was completely furnished, but rather the first of Washington's restoration projects.
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