|
Post by rriddle3 on May 11, 2010 0:09:01 GMT -5
I own only one book about Custer, Son of the Morning Star, but have certainly learned of the Little Big Horn from other sources and have often attributed the debacle to failings in common with a commander in another battle we discuss here, namely ego and poor martial decisions. I doubt we'll ever know whether or not he committed suicide, but the related evidence could point to that. Military leaders in losing situations have been known to do that.
|
|
|
Post by terryandrews55 on May 12, 2010 14:50:08 GMT -5
Thanks chaps=i've ordered custers luck from amazon and will make a start on it when time permits.in 18c england syphilis was rampant amongst the libertines and rakes.in fact there was a club named 'the no nose club'=the lack of a proboscis being a kind of decadent badge of honour.[so how does my commanding officer smell?terrible']obviously custer didnt suffer from this level of affliction.over a cold drink or 3,asked a medicine man friend about custers alleged disease.he replied it was possible he had it but that wasnt the first reason he would think of why a couple were childless.and as regards the story of impregnating and giving the disease to an indian squaw-why hadnt it happened to libby?have to agree with rod=if the indians had recognised the body of the hero of washita,it would surely have not been left[allegedly]unmutilated!!!.....Terry
|
|
|
Post by Allen Wiener on May 12, 2010 16:29:44 GMT -5
There are several good books on Custer and the LBH, but I'd have to rate Gray's "Centennial Campaign" at the top of the list.
|
|
|
Post by Chuck T on May 12, 2010 17:00:30 GMT -5
I fully agree with all that has been said about Stewart's "Custers Luck". For its time there is none better. I have always looked upon "Son of the Morning Star as more of a novel than history, althought it was a decent mini-series, with probably the most realistic presentation of the battle on film. Not perfect, a little to compressed, but quite good. The three part Custer series by the late Terry C Johnson were good reads but far from good history.
The question of Custer having VD has been floating around for as long as I can remember. I personnaly take no stock in it. Custer certainly liked the ladies in his youth. I believe that the fact that the Custer's were childless had more to do with Libby than anything else. No proof of course, and I doubt if any will ever be forthcoming as those things were not talked about in those days, and are not a popular subject for discussion even today.
The old prairie caution of saving the last bullet in your revolver for yourself is a possability. The possibility is also there that Custer was wounded and someone, perhaps his brother, perhaps someone else had mercy on him. The chances of either of these events taking place are equal in my mind of him having been hit twice by hostile fire. AS no post-mortem was done it is a mute point where the answer will never really be known. Such issues, while interesting, are hardly relevant to the course of the battle.
If there is one question for me, and there are many, it is why Tom Custer, commander of Company C was found quite near his brother's body, when the majority of his company's (troop's) remains were found about a quarter mile distant. I have heard many explanations for this but none ring quite true.
Buy the way I had a heart attack on Sunday(Mother's Day) so please keep your answers theraputic.
|
|
|
Post by Allen Wiener on May 12, 2010 22:55:53 GMT -5
Chuck,
That's awful news; hope all is OK now!
Allen
|
|
|
Post by Chuck T on May 13, 2010 0:13:37 GMT -5
Not awful. Just another challenge down life's pathway. To keep me calm and close to the workbench my wife bought me a 1/350 scale Liberty Ship today which will become S.S. JAMES BOWIE, my personal monument to Sterling Hayden late Captain USMC, OSS behind the lines operator in WWII. and I believe a genuinely good man. Often overlooked, his performances in Asphalt Jungle, Suddenly, and as Jack D. Ripper were magnificent. His performance in Last Command solidified in my mind who Bowie was for me. I know all the arguments but heroes need to be heroic. This is the west sir print the legend.
|
|
|
Post by sloanrodgers on May 13, 2010 1:54:21 GMT -5
Jeez! Sorry to read about your infarction, but not the positive attitude. Things can always be worse. Custer's heart was supposedly attacked by a bullet. So far as liberty ships named after Texas heroes, I found an original photograph of the S.S. Bigfoot Wallace, which served all over the Atlantic during the war. Good luck with your model and take care of that ticker.
|
|
|
Post by Jim Boylston on May 13, 2010 10:46:55 GMT -5
So sorry to heat this, Chuck! Hope everything is under control and all is well. Please keep us informed. Jim
|
|
|
Post by garyzaboly on May 13, 2010 15:18:53 GMT -5
Not awful. Just another challenge down life's pathway. To keep me calm and close to the workbench my wife bought me a 1/350 scale Liberty Ship today which will become S.S. JAMES BOWIE, my personal monument to Sterling Hayden late Captain USMC, OSS behind the lines operator in WWII. and I believe a genuinely good man. Often overlooked, his performances in Asphalt Jungle, Suddenly, and as Jack D. Ripper were magnificent. His performance in Last Command solidified in my mind who Bowie was for me. I know all the arguments but heroes need to be heroic. This is the west sir print the legend. Good luck to you, Chieftain, on the health front. And I agree with you on Sterling Hayden. His Bowie was the best screen Bowie. And THE ASPHALT JUNGLE is such a perfect film I never tire of watching it whenever it's on TV. (The novel by Burnett is equally fine).
|
|
|
Post by Chuck T on May 13, 2010 15:48:14 GMT -5
Did I mention that part of (a good part of) the attraction in Last Command was Anna Marie Alberghetti, As a twelve year old I thought she was the most beautiful woman on this earth. I got to meet her once at the pre-Broadway outing of Carnival in D.C. with the late Jerry Orbach (Lenny Briscoe on Law and Order). One of the thrills of my life. Saw a picture of her just the other day and she looks better at 74 than most women do at 24. Off topic sidebar but what the heck.
No damage to the heart muscle and I start cardiac rehab, which as I understand it is PT with a strict diet in a couple of weeks. I am just a little tired which is to be expected, but otherwise OK. I am up to 7 pills a day, and have to watch what I eat. I sure am glad Anna Maria is not my next door neighbor, that would make recovery "difficult"
|
|
|
Post by loucapitano on Feb 25, 2011 20:55:55 GMT -5
I saw Anna Marie Alberghetti play Maria in a touring company revival of West Side Story. She was a delight, especially for a 14 year old in 1962. By the way, I read once that not only didn't the Sioux not know they were fighting Custer, they wouldn't recognize him in his buckskin clothes and would have been thought of as a scout rather than the commander. Hope your recovery is proceeding. We need you.
|
|
|
Post by Chuck T on Feb 26, 2011 0:41:25 GMT -5
Lou:
I doubt if they knew either. Don't think it matter much to them. I am not sure they realized they had engaged Custer until sometime after the battle. Most of the Custer Clique in the 7th Cavalry wore buckskin. We know that Tom Custer did, along with Lieutenants Porter and Cooke for sure. My problem with that whole thing is what in the name of God is a man doing wearing a buckskin jacket on a 90 plus degree day near the end of June. There is the report of Porter's jacket being found I think in the village (I will have to check references on this) with a bullet hole in it. I don't recall if their was any blood stains. If there were none that bullet hole could have easily gotten there without the jacket being worn. My son did some research on some artifacts. I will check with him about Porter's jacket.
Rehab went well and I got a great report from my doctor about two weeks ago. Wants me to loose more weight though.
|
|
|
Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 26, 2011 9:20:50 GMT -5
Chuck,
As I recall, Custer had removed his jacket, probably due to the heat, and put in on the back of his saddle, prior to the battle. Others who were foolish enough to wear those heavy jackets in such heat may have done the same, hence the bullet hole with no blood stains.
I don't think the Indians had time to figure out who they were fighting, nor did they care much. I believe that, at least initially, they thought it was Cook's force, which they had battled about a week earlier on the Rosebud, coming back for more. Custer was losing his hair and had cut it short, so would not have been that recognizable anyway, although I think his body was recognized later. One story is that he had fathered a child by a Cheyenne woman and some of her family recognized him and asked that he not be mutilated. There were relatively minor mutilations (a finger cut off, sewing awls shoved through his ears, and an arrow in his penis).
Glad you got through the rehab OK; I've had 2 rounds of it myself over the years and still have to do the exercises every day before my regular workouts. I never had a real weight problem until about 2 years ago when I started putting on weight. I went on Weight Watchers about 15 months ago and lost the 20 pounds I'd set as my goal and, so far, I'm keeping it off. I highly recommend Weight Watchers; it's the only system that's worked for me.
Allen
|
|
|
Post by Chuck T on Feb 26, 2011 10:37:31 GMT -5
Allen: I believe the Indians thought that they were in for a Crook redux initially. The Indians probably realized, or at least had some impressions of who they were fighting after the Custer portions of the battle's conclusion. Things like markings on equipment and insignia on uniforms would have told them they were fighting the 7th Cavalry rather than elements of the 2nd and 3rd and an Infantry unit I cannot recall (perhaps the 20th) they had engaged a week earlier. I would not have thought they would have necessarily recognized Custer. That is the stuff of legend and novels. Interesting reading but that's about all.
Custer's body was not mutilated to the degree the others were. That brings us back to the original subject of this thread. Did Custer commit suicide or was he wounded and dispatched by others? I think the fact that he was only slightly mutilated points to what the Indians might have thought given the nature of his wounds. That is not proof of course, just as it complete nonsense to believe they left his body alone as a mark of respect. To me the most likely scenario was that those doing the mutilation did not recognize him nor treat him any different that the others. They saw the head wound, assumed that it may have been self inflicted and moved on. Sometimes the simple answers are not only simple but the whole truth.
|
|
|
Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 26, 2011 11:00:08 GMT -5
Occam's razor usually works, Chuck. It makes sense in that the Indians also reportedly mutilated those they saw as the bravest warriors more than others, possibly to incapacitate them in the next world. It's kind of a badge of respect, when you think about it. Tom Custer was mutilated beyond recognition except for a tatoo. There are Indian accounts that he was one of the last to die and fought very hard and bravely to the end. Hey, maybe one of Custer's men was so pissed off at the mess he'd gotten them into that he put a gun to Custer's head!
|
|