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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 10, 2010 10:26:44 GMT -5
I'm putting together a September trip to this area that will take in Yellowstone, Cody, WY, Little Big Horn, Mt. Rusmore & the Crazy Horse Monument, Deadwood and the Badlands.
Any and all suggestions by folks who have been there are most welcome. Trip will last 13 days, including 2 travel days.
Allen
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Apr 13, 2010 18:54:58 GMT -5
Never been there, but know that it can be mighty cold and they can get snow in that part of Montana in September.
I've been hoping to make a similar trip for years. My plan would be to start at the Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn battle site, head towards the Black Hills, and then down to the Bad Lands and ending at Pine Ridge and the Wounded Knee site, which is on the Pine Ridge Rez. Starting at the LBH and ending at Wounded Knee brings the Lakota story full circle. The Black Hills is significant because it was/is considered sacred ground by the Lakota, and the discovery of gold and Custer's indifference to the treaty that supposedly protected the Black Hills from encroachment, ultimately set into motion events that contributed to LBH.
Paul
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Post by TRK on Apr 14, 2010 6:59:30 GMT -5
Allen, I've done that circuit dozens of times since the early 1960s. I'll eventually pm you some specific suggestions, but up front, I'll tell you that unless you're really into desolation, a half day, or one day max, in the Badlands should be more than enough for you. Cody, WY, is worth at least one day, if not two. Can't give you good lodging recommendations for LBH, but I used to know a great gravel pit where you could throw out a sleeping bag
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Post by Hiram on Apr 14, 2010 8:12:57 GMT -5
My advice is to dress warm. We did essentially the same trip in the month of June (back in the '70s) and watched a foot of snow come down one day in Yellowstone. It was cold and windy at LBH, but no snow.
My favorite thing about Deadwood was Mount Mariah Cemetery (naturally). It has several sections, a Masonic section, a Jewish section, and I believe three different Potters' Field sections. There used to be a Chinese section but almost all of those remains were exhumed at some point and sent back to China.
Someday I want to make that trip again. My dad took me up there and I need to do the same for my kids.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 14, 2010 10:30:11 GMT -5
Many thanks for tips, guys! Looks like we'll need to pack some extra clothing. I'm really looking forward to this and we are generally following the itinerary you all are suggesting. Tom - I'll look forward to anything you can give me. We did find a B&B in Hardin, near LBH. I plan to spend an entire day out there. Badlands is a "maybe" at this point, tacked on to the end of the trip if we end up with an extra day on our hands.
I've been looking forward to this since I was a kid. My wife is really into Europe and got a lot more out of Italy and France than I did. This trip is a lot more meaningful to me.
Allen
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Post by TRK on Apr 14, 2010 12:59:42 GMT -5
Looks like we'll need to pack some extra clothing. Early September can be very nice out there, but in the Yellowstone high country in particular, you could run into snow that month...and if not snow, you'll often get pop-up rain showers in the afternoon.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 14, 2010 13:45:51 GMT -5
I've been reading up on that country, especially Yellowstone, and talking to the guy we're staying with in Gardiner, MT. It sounds like that Yellowstone is really unlike anywhere else on earth. We'll take what comes as this is supposed to be an adventure as much as a vacation. When I tell most people that Little Big Horn is the highlight of the trip for me; that I've waited most of my life to go there, they look at me as if I have 2 heads.
Allen
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Post by TRK on Apr 14, 2010 14:07:57 GMT -5
Allen, for your LBH visit, if you don't already have Where Custer Fell: Photographs of the Little Bighorn Battlefield Then and Now by James Brust, Brian Pohanka, and Sandy Bernard, I'd advise getting a copy, reading it, and taking it with you. It's a good comparative guide to the historic post-battle photographs, showing exactly where they were taken and what the spots look like today, with accompanying maps. It's akin to taking copies of William Frassanito's Gettysburg and Antietam books to those battlefields.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 14, 2010 15:35:19 GMT -5
Tom - thanks for the tip; just ordered that and "Custer in '76" on Amazon.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 14, 2010 18:16:45 GMT -5
Sadly, I've never been to a Sioux battleground or reservations. One of my ancestors ( Capt. John Barrett Long ) did help kick off the Siuox conflict with the so-called Grindstone War. They didn't actually do battle with the Sioux, but they chased them out of the area. I also had a friend during basic training at Ft. Sill, who was a full-blooded Lakota from Wounded Knee Reservation. His name was Yellowshield. but he wasn't tough enough for life in the army and he eventually flunked out. Though not a warrior, he was a good guy and taught me a lot about real Native Americans.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Apr 14, 2010 21:03:30 GMT -5
Most Lakota are tolerant of outsiders referring to them as "Sioux", but it is considered by most to be somewhat derogatory. it is derived from a French term for "slit throat."
Wounded Knee is not the reservation. It is part of the Pine Ridge Rez. If you have never been to Pine, be prepared for a reality check. many homes are deplorable, and lack running water or adequate plumbing and heat. Average lifespan for a male on Pine Ridge is 48. For a woman, 51. Suicide rates, school drop out rates, incidences of liver disease and TB are many, many times the national average.
I highly recommend reading "On The Rez" by Ian Frazier as a primer to what conditions there are like. I have a Lakota friend who left the Rez and now lives in Maine, who warned me (and I'm part Abenaki) that it is dangerous for wasicus (white people) to travel Pine Ridge alone.
Paul
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 14, 2010 22:16:00 GMT -5
I've been told the same thing about Pine Ridge, Paul, and while I would like to have visited the site of Wounded Knee, which on the reservation, we are going to skip it. It's too far off our path, for the time we have available, and frankly is a very depressing place. From all that I've heard and seen, it is worse than most of the more deplorable areas of the worst so-called 3rd World countries. No one in America should live like that and the conditions on the reservation only emphasize the event at Wounded Knee and what they represent. It's tragedy upon tragedy, in my view.
Allen
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 15, 2010 4:09:03 GMT -5
Most Lakota are tolerant of outsiders referring to them as "Sioux", but it is considered by most to be somewhat derogatory. it is derived from a French term for "slit throat." I don't think I specifically referred to Lakotas as Sioux, so there's really no offense. I was vaguely referencing Chief Inkpaduta's Wahpekute from the 1854 Grindstone War, but used Sioux because I didn't think most people here would be familar with this small war-like offshoot. I also don't believe Sioux is a French term. I think it's probably a corruption of an Indian word as the French would say assassin or transher gorge for slit throat. I may be a little off on my translation. Yea, You got me on Wounded Knee Rez, Ugh!. My friend actually came from Pine Ridge, but his dad was mixed up in that 1970s Wounded Knee mess and I got a bit confused while writing. Yellowshield told me horror stories about growing up in a shack with no utilities and no job opportunities. Health issues made basic really hard on him. I've visited rez's in Colorado, Oklahoma and Texas and they're usually poor in one way or another. I'd like to visit Pine Ridge and my old friend someday. Thanks, I'll look for it. My grandmother's Canadian-Mi'kmaq ancestors came from Montreal and Nova Scotia during the old voyageur days and the French expulsion. One of my ancestors took a trip with LA Salle and some uncles founded New Orleans and Baton Rouge, LA. My grandma didn't even learn English until she started grade school. Adieu.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Apr 15, 2010 6:16:35 GMT -5
RR -- The Mi-kmaq and the Abenaki (which is part of my heritage) are realated as part of the greater Wabnaki Nation (along with the Maloseets, Penobscots, Passamaquoddies). Small world.
I couldn't find the slit-throat reference, though I have seen it in the past. In general the name seems to do more with "little snakes" or adders (see below). But you are right in that the broader term "Sioux" encompasses much more than Lakota, which I knew.
I did find this in my searching" "The name 'Sioux' is an abbreviated form of Nadouessioux borrowed into French Canadian from Nadoüessioüak from the early Odawa exonym: naadowesiwag 'Sioux'.:
Brittanica Online has this: " ... a broad alliance of North American Indian peoples who spoke three related languages within the Siouan language family. The name Sioux is an abbreviation of Nadouessioux (“Adders”; i.e., “enemies”), a name originally applied to them by the Ojibwa. The Santee, also known as the Eastern Sioux, were Dakota speakers and comprised the Mdewkanton, Wahpeton, Wahpekute, and Sisseton. The Yankton, who spoke Nakota, included the Yankton and Yanktonai. The Teton, also referred to as the Western Sioux, spoke Lakota and had seven divisions—the Sihasapa, or Blackfoot; Brulé (Upper and Lower); Hunkpapa; Miniconjou; Oglala; Sans Arcs; and Oohenonpa, or Two-Kettle. ... "
Pine Ridge is a true tragedy, in the least. One could argue that the People (oyate) at Pine Ridge are still, in some way, paying the price for Custer.
Paul
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 15, 2010 10:10:57 GMT -5
My grandmother's Canadian-Mi'kmaq ancestors came from Montreal and Nova Scotia during the old voyageur days and the French expulsion. One of my ancestors took a trip with LA Salle and some uncles founded New Orleans and Baton Rouge, LA. My grandma didn't even learn English until she started grade school. Adieu. If ever you should visit the beautiful land of Nova Scotia (which I highly recommend you do), be sure to spend at least one night in Annapolis Royal, which, like Annapolis, MD, was named for Queen Anne. Do not miss this late-night tour of the cemetary. No, this isn't your standard, hokey "ghost tour" at all; it's a very clever setting for a lesson in the history of the place, including the Acadian deportation (those who ended up in Louisiana became known as Cajuns). Alan Melanson, the guide, is a wonderful guy who is Acadian. Here's the website link: www.tourannapolisroyal.com/graveyard.htmlAllen
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