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Post by stuart on Dec 17, 2007 16:50:28 GMT -5
Spinning off from discussion on another thread I'm wondering about this courier business.
One of the Seguin accounts relates how he slipped out of the Alamo and was provided with a horse outside - contradicting the popular legend that he rode out on Bowie's one
The more I think about this, the more inclined I am to suspect that the same went for all but the first of the messengers. Once upon a time I used to be pretty good at moving undetected in the dark, but I'd hate to do it with a horse.
Its certainly questionable whether there were many horses in the Alamo at the outset. Travis sent a messenger (who I wonder?) out to the Salado to fetch some the morning Santa Anna arrived, but there's no mention of him getting there and bringing any back in time. A number of individuals were sent dashing hither and thither on those horses which were in town, but how many of them actually made it in - and then what about feed?
It seems much more likely to me therefore that messengers got out on foot and either picked up their horses from known friends amongst the Tejanos or made their way to the Cibolo where Chenoweth seems to have maintained a listening station.
Going in would have involved the reverse. The obvious exception is the Gonzales reinforcement but there were probably enough of them to dispense with stealth
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Post by Jim Boylston on Dec 17, 2007 17:31:18 GMT -5
Stuart wrote:
Travis's letters say the Gonzales reinforcement "got in". I'm digging through sources again to see if the 32 men riding in is just another of those legends we've all come to accept without any real documentation. I've never really thought about it before. Jim
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Post by stuart on Dec 17, 2007 17:36:30 GMT -5
Sutherland's account (Hansen 147) describes them riding in - and being intercepted on the way.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Dec 17, 2007 19:08:49 GMT -5
Sutherland's account (Hansen 147) describes them riding in - and being intercepted on the way. Sutherland describes them arriving in the "suburbs of the city", when they were approached by a man on horseback who offered to lead them in to the fort. They suspected it was General Woll, raised an alrm, and the horseman bolted into a thicket. Sutherland then speaks of the band proceeding silently, in single file towards the fort, and being fired upon by the sentinel, but he doesn't state specifically that they were still on horseback, which brings me back to my question. It seems perfectly logical to me that couriers leaving the fort would leave on foot and mount up somewhere else to avoid detection (unlike the George Russell charge on horseback through the lines as depicted in the Fess Parker film). It also makes sense to me that the reverse would be true. While speed would be important, silence and stealth would be even more so, and the idea that the men would dismount and proceed to the fort on foot utilizing as much natural cover as possible doesn't really conflict with the Sutherland report. Another point I'm curious about is this: was there another point of egress in the fort other than the main gate that would accomodate a horse? Certainly not a postern (whatever that may have been), and I doubt if the "gate" we've been discussing along the east front would have been large enough. Seems to me that the gate through the lunette would have been it, and horses coming and going would have been very obvious to anyone observing. Jim
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Post by marklemon on Dec 17, 2007 20:28:17 GMT -5
Jim, If there was any sort of gate at the northern gap of the granary/extension portion of the compound, it would have been wide enough to have allowed passage of a horse and rider. This gap was approximately 5 1/2 feet wide, and as such was certainly large enough. In addition, there was a narrower gap (with a gate) near the eastern end of the palisade. Jake has it, if memory serves, as about 3 to 3.5 feet wide. I'm not sure, but I feel pretty sure a horse may be able to negotiate that width. The only other egress point, other than the northern postern ( basically the size of a doorway), was the wide gate in the lunette facing west. Mark
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Post by mustanggray on Dec 17, 2007 21:20:11 GMT -5
A gate of 5 1/2' would easily accept a horse and rider while one 3'-3 1/2' would be a bit of a tight fit though one could easily dismount and lead a horse through a gate of that size. It makes sense to my 21st century way of thinking to slip out afoot and catch up a horse when a safe distance out of town. I'm not familiar with how the horses we've been discussing at apsture were kept up after Santa Anna finally arrived and laid siege... do we know what happened to them at this point?
I know from riding with friends carrying lances(and my time carrying a lance on horseback) I would not have wanted to be on the recieving end of a lancer or dragoon chasing me trying to intercept a dispatch I might be carrying! I would definitely want my horse in the best shape possible for a ride such as that!!!
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Post by Jim Boylston on Dec 17, 2007 21:24:20 GMT -5
I've posted some new images from Mark Lemon in the "Breakouts" thread that might also be pertinent to this discussion as regards points of egress. Check 'em out. Jim
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Post by Jim Boylston on Dec 17, 2007 21:27:53 GMT -5
Jim, If there was any sort of gate at the northern gap of the granary/extension portion of the compound, it would have been wide enough to have allowed passage of a horse and rider. This gap was approximately 5 1/2 feet wide, and as such was certainly large enough. In addition, there was a narrower gap (with a gate) near the eastern end of the palisade. Jake has it, if memory serves, as about 3 to 3.5 feet wide. I'm not sure, but I feel pretty sure a horse may be able to negotiate that width. The only other egress point, other than the northern postern ( basically the size of a doorway), was the wide gate in the lunette facing west. Mark That "gap" is still a problem for me since we're not sure whether or not it was accessable. Maybe, maybe not. I'm still stuck on thinking that getting out afoot would have been easier, then picking up a mount at a prearranged point. I could be wrong, but a horse and rider would make a big target for the soldados encircling the Alamo. Jim
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Post by stuart on Dec 18, 2007 1:48:49 GMT -5
That's been my point all along; backed up both by that version of Seguin's exit on foot and the questionmarks over horses being kept in the Alamo.
Something else to bear in mind is that if Seguin found it necessary to get out that way comparatively early in the siege, it seems unlikely it would have been any easier to get out (or in) on horseback later.
There is if course the exception of Bonham but as I recall he (and a couple of others with him if you believe Dickenson) made their run in broad daylight, abandoning stealth in favour of speed, surprise - and being able to see where they were going.
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Post by stuart on Dec 18, 2007 14:43:08 GMT -5
Germain to this is a comment in one of Travis' pre-siege letters in which he suggested the companies at Copano and Goliad could be ordered to reinforce the Alamo. He reckoned this was practical "as they could reach here in 4 days on foot." (Hansen 22) Although this sounds a touch optimistic the point is that he seemed pretty comfortable with the notion of travelling comparatively long distances across the prairie on foot - in contrast to later Texans who would only walk to the outhouse of they couldn't ride Therefore I'd suspect that not only were the messengers getting out on foot but they were expected to travel as far as it took on foot, rather than knocking on the first likely looking door.
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Post by elcolorado on Dec 18, 2007 18:44:49 GMT -5
It looks like I'm starting out in the minority, again. While it's possible that a few messengers initially left on foot, I'm unconvinced it was probable.
At first glance, leaving on foot may sound like a more desirable option, but was it? IMO, this method of sending communiques is inefficient, unreliable, slow, and very risky.
Consider the obvious pitfalls. First, there is uncertainty of finding a horse. If obtaining a horse was difficult before the siege began, how much more difficult would it be after? Also, I just can't envision a messenger having to grope around in the dark in hopes of snagging himself a horse. Would the horse(s) be where you expected them to be? And, would the courier be expected to ride bareback or would he have to carry with him things like a rope, blanket, bridle, etc.? Would food and water have been a consideration?
The suggestion of having friendly tejanos providing horses is, I feel, problematic. Undoubtedly, there were locals in Bexar that were sympathetic to the defenders. But I'm deeply skeptical that one or more would routinely stick their neck(s) out by providing hard to find horses to the Texans. Aside from Juan Seguin having a couple of his meals sent to the Alamo, I don't think Travis could, or would, depend on any of the local populace for assistance. Besides, how would have Travis arranged for such an undependable covert operation like that in the first place??
The theory of couriers hiking to the Cibolo, in hopes hitching a ride is also problematic. Why would Chenoweth, Travis, Bowie, or anyone else establish a listening post on the Cibolo when no one, other then the locals, believed Santa Anna was coming until mid-March at the earliest?? In addition, If Chenoweth did maintain a station on the Cibolo, how could Travis know of it? He was trapped inside the Alamo. I think Travis would regard this method of sending dispatches as too risky and unreliable, also.
I think the danger mounted couriers faced from the Mexican army was minimal. First, it would appear that the Mexicans did not maintain a tight ring around the Alamo. As we all know, the "32" were able to approach and enter without too much fuss. Two days later, Bonham, according to Travis, rides into the Alamo at 11:00 am "unmolested." So a solitary rider leaving to garrison could have exited just as easily. And frankly, I don't think Santa Anna was all that concerned about a single rider leaving or entering. He's focus seemed to be on both Fannin and Houston and the possibility of them showing up in his rear.
I think the couriers were relatively safe at night. The Mexicans were bound to hear a wide variety of noises, some from other soldados. Even if some soldados saw the rider, they would have to be fairly close to the courier to make a positive I.D. Also, firearms, except at very close range, would be of little use in the dark. So I don't believe muskets would have posed a big threat. And the garrison probably knew, from observation, what areas to avoid, anyway.
I think what it boils down to is: Do you believe the garrison maintained enough horses in the Alamo the do the job? If you don't, then your only option is to believe to theory in question. If, however, you do believe the defenders had the horses available, then you have another option to consider.
OK...I'm ready to be "cyber-scalped." Being in the minority is a tough and thankless job...but somebody has to do it!
Glenn
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Post by Allen Wiener on Dec 18, 2007 21:20:57 GMT -5
The problem seems to be that no one can account for the horses that would have been required being in the Alamo at all. So the only other possibilities are that they left on foot, found horses where they could, or perhaps where they knew some had been left, or walked the whole way. A clue to this should be the time it took varioius couriers to reach points like Gonzales, Goliad and Washington; could they have walked in that time? Would they have to have ridden in order to make those times? I also don't think it's unlikely that the 32 also made it in on foot (how long did it take them to reach the Alamo from Gonzales? Same question -- could they have done it on foot, or would horses have been required to do it in the time they took?)
AW
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Post by elcolorado on Dec 18, 2007 23:14:36 GMT -5
I can't be sure of the distance (miles) from Gonzales and San Antonio, the number 70 comes to mind.
And somewhere, I recall reading that the 32 left Gonzales on Feb 27 or 28. Williamson's letter was written on the !st of March and Bonham delivered it on the 3rd. So it appears it could take at least 2 days on horseback to cover the distance.
If the 32 left Gonzales on 28 Feb and arrived at the Alamo on 1 Mar then I say it's an indication they were mounted. But my recollection of 70 miles may not be correct.
Glenn
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Post by Allen Wiener on Dec 18, 2007 23:54:11 GMT -5
Goliad was 90-95 miles away; Gonazlez 70-75.
AW
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Post by stuart on Dec 19, 2007 1:47:55 GMT -5
The theory of couriers hiking to the Cibolo, in hopes hitching a ride is also problematic. Why would Chenoweth, Travis, Bowie, or anyone else establish a listening post on the Cibolo when no one, other then the locals, believed Santa Anna was coming until mid-March at the earliest?? In addition, If Chenoweth did maintain a station on the Cibolo, how could Travis know of it? He was trapped inside the Alamo. I think Travis would regard this method of sending dispatches as too risky and unreliable, also. Glenn One of the problems we have with the courier business is that we know of the ones (or at least some of them) getting out, but not those getting in. In Travis' letter of March 3 (Hansen 37) he says that all his couriers got out without being caught. He may have worked this out after talking to the Gonzales people but as at least some of them had gone to Fannin I think its more likely there was a two-way traffic. As to the Cibolo RV, we know Chenoweth was sent up there by Fannin (the late Tom Lindley tried to use this as evidence of his second reinforcement theory*) and that his company was being used as a courier service, and also that Seguin had a patrol line in the area - per both Bennett McNelly (a courier from Fannin who failed to get in) and Sutherland. This may indeed have been one of the reasons why Seguin was sent out when he was; because he himself was confident of picking up a horse outside and then afterwards outbound couriers knew that they had to make for the Cibolo rather than striking out all the way to Gonzales or Goliad on their own. * a couple of the individuals TRL also used to bolster his theory probably went into the Alamo as couriers rather than reinforcements and didn't come out again.
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