Joe?

[Jim Boylston]

Jesse Waldinger here, not computer savvy, have no idea what a forum or a thread or even a post is except what I read on the HELP page, and have written nothing about the Alamo. Read some. Have a bittersweet story about meeting Fess Parker, my boyhood idol, back in 1994. What I really want to know is where to get every bit of information extant regarding Travis' "boy" Joe. But I don't know how to start a thread. Sigh.

[sloanrodgers]

Hey Joe, Jim, Jesse. This thread has me confused too. OIC! The above post was placed in
the member introductions section by Jesse, then re-posted here by Jim. Duh!

[billchemerka]

A forthcoming book about Joe should answer most questions about him. As of my last meeting with the co-authors, they suggested that nothing be said about its contents yet.

[bobdurham]

This old article on the Alamo de Parras site has a little information about Joe:

www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/adp/history/1836/blacks/durham.html

[jesswald]

Thank you for the leads, gentlemen. I wonder when the book on Joe is likely to come out. If publishers have trouble anticipating the reaction to a book (Exodus from the Alamo) that suggests that the garrison may have had the good sense to run for it, and keep on postponing publication, imagine what they will do with a book that doesn't gloss over the fact that the Texas revolution was fought to a large extent over slavery. Unpopular points of view can have trouble finding their venue, even in America. In law, there's something called the "heckler's veto."
Jesse Waldinger

[pawbear]

If this book is well written, it would be a very exciting additon to the Alamo informamtion. I be most interested if the authors have oral history by Joe's family of what occured at the battle. But, just to fill in the gaps from his escape from the Jones ranch to his reemergence in Austin in the 1870's and what happened to him after that would be very interesting.

[Jim Boylston]

Nov 12, 2009 16:52:59 GMT -5 pawbear said:

If this book is well written, it would be a very exciting additon to the Alamo informamtion. I be most interested if the authors have oral history by Joe's family of what occured at the battle. But, just to fill in the gaps from his escape from the Jones ranch to his reemergence in Austin in the 1870's and what happened to him after that would be very interesting.

Nice to see a post from you, pawbear! It's been too long!

[Kevin Young]

I think Lee Spencer White and Ron Jackson will do a creditable job on their Joe book. They have been doing a lot of hard research over the years. I also here it will have some Zably art work.

[alamonorth]

In all honesty, and untill a more substantive study appears, we really can not ignore Ned Huthmacher's novel about Joe called One Domingo Morning.

[stuart]

Nov 12, 2009 14:36:01 GMT -5 jesswald said:

If publishers have trouble anticipating the reaction to a book (Exodus from the Alamo) that suggests that the garrison may have had the good sense to run for it, and keep on postponing publication, imagine what they will do with a book that doesn't gloss over the fact that the Texas revolution was fought to a large extent over slavery.
Jesse Waldinger

Well I don't know what the hold up is on Exodus; perhaps its a bit "thin", but I'd be wary of any book arguing that "the Texas revolution was fought to a large extent over slavery". I've no doubt that to some of those involved, particularly at the New Orleans end, the maintenance or promotion of slavery was an issue, but it certainly wasn't the only issue, far less the overriding issue. It all depends on the viewpoint - just because one group involved at the time, or one particular school of historians sees a particular issue as important, it doesn't follow that others do or that a particular conflict was "about" that issue.

James Grant for example was a Mexican federalist (amongst other things); he certainly wasn't fighting Santa Anna to promote slavery and in fact had been brought up at the very centre of the British anti-slavery movement. I could also cite plenty of other examples, but this is sliding off topic enough as it is.

(I'll be interested to see the book on Joe, especially if it can provide a surname for him)

[sloanrodgers]

Where does the supposition originate that the Texas Revolution was fought to extend slavery into the area. I don't believe
I've ever come across this disturbing causation in contemporary documents or first-hand accounts. Some early Texans had
slaves, but I believe most did not. Did poor non-slave owners actually provoke a war so they could buy slaves? Where's the
evidence for this bold theory?

[alamonorth]

A good place to start the study of Texas and slavery is to read about all the filibustering expeditions in the first half of the 1800's. Some had as their sole goal the expansion of the slave empire. Two recent books on this topic are Charles Brown's Agents of Manifest Destiny, and Robert May's Manifest Destiny's Underworld- Filibustering in Ante Bellum America.

[stuart]

Ah well, if we're sliding off anyway...

There's no doubt at all about the importance of the slavery issue; see for instance Benjamin Lundy's The War in Texas published in 1837, and Britain's attitude as set out in the closing chapter of my own book. However what I'm sounding a cautionary note on is the notion that it was all about slavery. The revolution happened and events turned out the way they did through a combination of many factors and motives, so that pronouncing one underlying issue pursued by a particular group, however influential, as the real one is a touch unwise, given the different and in some cases competing objectives pursued by others.

[Kevin Young]

Nov 15, 2009 22:46:11 GMT -5 alamonorth said:

A good place to start the study of Texas and slavery is to read about all the filibustering expeditions in the first half of the 1800's. Some had as their sole goal the expansion of the slave empire. Two recent books on this topic are Charles Brown's Agents of Manifest Destiny, and Robert May's Manifest Destiny's Underworld- Filibustering in Ante Bellum America.

Well, as my Canadian friend knows, I have a particular interest in the whole filibustering period, before and after 1836 and in particular the Knights of the Golden Circle and William Walker. That said, I will disagree with him slightly. Both books are very good, but I would say, in a personal opinion, that An Empire for Slavery: The Peculiar Institution in Texas, 1821-1865 by Randolph B. Campbell is the best starting place.

Where does the supposition originate that the Texas Revolution was fought to extend slavery into the area. I don't believe
I've ever come across this disturbing causation in contemporary documents or first-hand accounts. Some early Texans had
slaves, but I believe most did not. Did poor non-slave owners actually provoke a war so they could buy slaves? Where's the
evidence for this bold theory?

Some of this steams from Santa Anna's comments in his dispatches back to Mexico City during the campaign. John Steinbeck was advancing this theroy in the 1950's.

[Herb]

I would suggest, as Stuart says of Grant, there were many motives for every single revolutionary. It's just not human nature to make an important decision soley based on one factor, but every single man made his decision on a number of factors - which is fundamentally why the Texian govt had in effect collapsed in January.

Slavery was certainly one of the factors that figured into the decisions of many. But. let us also not forget that there were also abolitionists (Dr Pollard, Dr Grant, etc.) that took up arms against Santa Anna.

And before somebody makes the claim that Mexico had outlawed slavery, lets not forget that besides Tejas Y Cohuila, slavery was allowed to exsist (and in fact encouraged) in New Mexico and California until those areas were conquered by the US during the Mexican War (and then reestablished in New Mexico by the Compromise of 1850).

Slavery was certainly an issue - but it wasn't THE issue.