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Post by bowie on Dec 1, 2011 14:02:25 GMT -5
With all due respect, the metalurgical test Mr. Musso said was performed, puts the Musso Bowie Knife around early 1830s, not 1950s. You're correct that many similar were made in the 1950s but it apparently existed during the 1830s as well, which does'nt rule it out. Even Juan Seguine's illustration highly resembles the Musso Bowie. I think people come to the conclusion that the Sandbar duel knife was a simpler "Butcher Knife" style, but later Bowie's actual knife could easily have evolved into something like "The Musso knife". I read many articles on the Bowie Knife .....It has developed into to the present shape over the years. I have a reference book on Bowies going back to the Alamo period plus 20 years and would be happy to email to any member who wishes to see them........The Bowie knife that Jim carried is most likely to have been an elongated form of butchers knife which I can send pics to any members........The brass back (Musso ) Bowie is a much later invention (1950s).......and is what we would like to have imagined a Bowie to look like.......Joe Musso must hate me as I have already questioned the portrait of Jim Bowie in another post.! The Bowie knife shown in 2004 film The Alamo.........wishful thinking
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Post by sloanrodgers on Dec 4, 2011 22:34:29 GMT -5
I think people come to the conclusion that the Sandbar duel knife was a simpler "Butcher Knife" style, but later Bowie's actual knife could easily have evolved into something like "The Musso knife". People came to the conclusion that the Sandbar Knife was a big butcher knife or large file blade based on the 1827 newspaper stories and later first-hand descriptions, obviously not because it looked like a classic Bowie or was popular. In Jim Bowie's last years there is apparently no contemporary evidence that he required or possessed any large knife other than possibly the Sandbar one. Folks like to think that his last or Alamo Knife was different and had dimensions/ characteristics indicative of the classic Bowie, but without a 1836 description of the blade, opinions can obviously vary to a great degree as to its actual appearance. I'm not a metallurgy or Bowie knife expert and I don't know much about the Collins/Musso Bowie Knife. However, I believe the jury is still out on when and where that blade was created. Even when you catch a murderer red-handed, it is almost impossible to convict him on the basis of one type of scientific analysis and the modern rules of evidence usually require a battery of impartial tests. Jim Bowie's last blade could have also looked nothing like the popular classic examples, which seems more likely in my view.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Dec 5, 2011 8:53:50 GMT -5
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Post by sloanrodgers on Dec 6, 2011 21:26:59 GMT -5
Interesting link, but I would add that it was long-winded and hard to read through. I had never run across that one before, but wasn't looking. Who knew that this simple knife could spawn such a contentious debate, especially on a muzzleloader magazine forum. I really just thought knife collectors, historians and others believed it or not without getting so nasty about it. The agressive stance on both sides of the issue might indicate that there are weaknesses in both arguments that are understated at the expense of extracting the truth from the limited sources on Jim Bowie, James Black and early Bowie knives. I wonder if that so-called clasp knife (photo) or navaja is basically the lock-spring Bowie that I discovered in that 1830 Washington D.C. newspaper ad a couple weeks ago and posted in the Bowie thread. Why would one need a lock or spring otherwise? * Spelling correction
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Post by Herb on Dec 7, 2011 9:44:27 GMT -5
It's like most all the other arguments about the Alamo, facts versus beliefs. With emotions and wishes thrown in. I'm not a knife expert, so I've stayed out of this one, but I do know a knife expert very familiar with this knife and the testing done on it. I trust the man and his knowledge. According to him every bit of evidence places the knife in the 1830s/40s. Now that doesn't at all mean it was Bowie's knife, but the scientific evidence does place it on the same time period.
Tying the knife to Bowie's personally, is, imo, scientifically impossible, as is proving that it is not. And while, nobody will say it, I personally think that is the real issue in these particular debates.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Dec 7, 2011 15:26:38 GMT -5
I think you're right on both counts, Herb. That's what seems to underly the debate, and the knife does appear to be from the period, thus supporting the idea that such knives may have been in use at the time of the Alamo. Beyond that, it's all speculation and wishful thinking.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Dec 7, 2011 20:37:36 GMT -5
I'm clearly no scientist, but I havn't seen any tests that definitely ties it to a specific county or decade. There seem to be lots of knife collectors, makers and historians with various opinions. It's too bad that carbon 14 dating on the wood handle and metal corrosion with all its variables can't pinpoint a more specific time within the 19th Century to assuage them to a friendly conclusion on a general period for creation. Either way Phil Collins has a good example of an old classic Bowie Knife for his new book.
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Post by bowie on Dec 12, 2011 0:16:56 GMT -5
According to Juan Sequin's illustration, it had evolved, if it looked like what he drew. David Crockett was'nt a consistent coonskin cap wearer until the "play" actor made it popular. If Jim Bowie had any of that type of personality in him, I personally belive he would have elaborated with a more impressive blade after the duel became famous. Of coarse I have no facts for this but there is evidence that James Bowie was a a flamboyant character. Therefore, I find it highly unlikely that after that Sandbar duel became very famous, that he stuck with a file shaved average looking butcher knife. After all. "People expect things". I think people come to the conclusion that the Sandbar duel knife was a simpler "Butcher Knife" style, but later Bowie's actual knife could easily have evolved into something like "The Musso knife". People came to the conclusion that the Sandbar Knife was a big butcher knife or large file blade based on the 1827 newspaper stories and later first-hand descriptions, obviously not because it looked like a classic Bowie or was popular. In Jim Bowie's last years there is apparently no contemporary evidence that he required or possessed any large knife other than possibly the Sandbar one. Folks like to think that his last or Alamo Knife was different and had dimensions/ characteristics indicative of the classic Bowie, but without a 1836 description of the blade, opinions can obviously vary to a great degree as to its actual appearance. I'm not a metallurgy or Bowie knife expert and I don't know much about the Collins/Musso Bowie Knife. However, I believe the jury is still out on when and where that blade was created. Even when you catch a murderer red-handed, it is almost impossible to convict him on the basis of one type of scientific analysis and the modern rules of evidence usually require a battery of impartial tests. Jim Bowie's last blade could have also looked nothing like the popular classic examples, which seems more likely in my view.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Dec 14, 2011 23:34:22 GMT -5
According to Juan Sequin's illustration, it had evolved, if it looked like what he drew. David Crockett was'nt a consistent coonskin cap wearer until the "play" actor made it popular. If Jim Bowie had any of that type of personality in him, I personally belive he would have elaborated with a more impressive blade after the duel became famous. Of coarse I have no facts for this but there is evidence that James Bowie was a a flamboyant character. Therefore, I find it highly unlikely that after that Sandbar duel became very famous, that he stuck with a file shaved average looking butcher knife. After all. "People expect things". So you're saying that Juan Seguin drew an illustration of Bowie's Alamo knife? I don't believe I've seen this drawing. All I was stating before this revelation was that we apparently only had one historical frame of reference for a large blade that Bowie actually owned and used in a knife fight. People obviously have many different ideas on the size and shape of the Sand Bar Knife and how the Bowie knife's popularity developed into the later variations. Fame changes some people, but not others. Crockett probably adopted the coonskin cap because people expect things, not because it kept the sun out of his eyes and the rain off his brow, but that's just my opinion. One thing is certain, our poorer ancestors valued their weapons, tools and other sturdy accessories more than most people do in our current throw-away society. I believe early pioneers bought and made equipment that worked, then often used them until they were either worn out, stolen or lost. Bowie may not have held to this ethos, but that's for historians to determine. To this day there are old codgers (some famous and some not) in Texas that are using treasured items that they bought as young men, but they refuse to part with them because they get the job done as in days of old and sometimes they work better than modern, cheaply-made contrivances. Look at Willie Nelson and that battle-weary, wrecked guitar. With so little documentation on Bowie's preferences on fighting or butter knives, I would never claim or imply that Bowie definitely held a certain type, shape or length of blade in his last hours as others have done and still do. I simply think that Bowie's possession of the Sand bar butcher knife, a rough file blade or a cuchillo (even in a sick man's trunk) is one of many possibilities. We will never know for sure without the influx of more evidence.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jul 13, 2012 10:28:16 GMT -5
According to Juan Sequin's illustration, it had evolved, if it looked like what he drew. I still have not seen Juan Seguin's mysterious illustration of Jim Bowie's alleged knife. Please tell me where I can find this drawing? Thanks.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jul 17, 2012 13:27:34 GMT -5
According to Juan Sequin's illustration, it had evolved, if it looked like what he drew. I still have not seen Juan Seguin's mysterious illustration of Jim Bowie's alleged knife. Please tell me where I can find this drawing? Thanks. Ditto!!!
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jul 18, 2012 11:27:35 GMT -5
I suspect the sketch might be a accidental red herring from an unknown source, so it may never be revealed.
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