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Post by Wade Dillon on Apr 24, 2009 17:53:01 GMT -5
Hey everyone, To begin, here's a link to a series of Crockett idioms collected together by Robert A. Braun that some may find of some use. www.geocities.com/old_lead/crockettidioms.htmAlso, a question regarding the latrines in the northern courtyard. Would the garrison have called them latrines or sinks as Stephen Harrigan calls them in Gates of the Alamo? What are some other appropriate and accurate period terms that the men and women would've used during the Texas Revolution? All the best, Wade
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Post by TRK on Apr 24, 2009 19:13:19 GMT -5
Would the garrison have called them latrines or sinks as Stephen Harrigan calls them in Gates of the Alamo? I'm shooting from the hip, but would some of them have called the area "the bog"? I'm not sure if this was in use in 1836, but ten years later, in the Mexican War, there was a pretty common slang term, slope, which meant to flee or skedaddle, as in, "The Indianans threw down their muskets and sloped from the field." (Hope there aren't any Hoosiers here who are still sore about Buena Vista, lol.)
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Post by Kevin Young on Apr 24, 2009 19:20:14 GMT -5
There is always the ever popular "seen the elephant."
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Post by TRK on Apr 24, 2009 19:54:10 GMT -5
Getting back to the outhouses, my 1846 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language doesn't even include the word latrine. It does list "jakes," "necessary," "privy" and "privy house" as the terms you'd use. If there was an element of running water to clear out the area, "sinks" would also be appropriate.
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Post by Kevin Young on Apr 24, 2009 20:07:48 GMT -5
Getting back to the outhouses, my 1846 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language doesn't even include the word latrine. It does list "jakes," "necessary," "privy" and "privy house" as the terms you'd use. If there was an element of running water to clear out the area, "sinks" would also be appropriate. My copy of the US Regulations for 1841 uses "sinks."
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Post by stuart on Apr 25, 2009 9:47:01 GMT -5
Would the garrison have called them latrines or sinks as Stephen Harrigan calls them in Gates of the Alamo? I'm shooting from the hip, but would some of them have called the area "the bog"? Bog is quite old. In the 18th century the polite term was the necessary house, but I have seen a floor plan of Ruthven barracks which clearly labels it as the bog-house; or to be more exact there was an officers' bog house and a soldiers' bog house
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Post by Wade Dillon on May 1, 2009 18:14:14 GMT -5
Interesting! Thank you, gentlemen. I made a recent visit to the Castillo de San Marcos, also known as Fort Marion, and their period latrines had a sewer system that ran into the river...if I remember correctly.
In Mark Lemon's The Illustrated Alamo 1836, he mentions that the "latrines were probably of a primitive but quite effective type, which has been used for thousands of years, and would have been the most likely type used by the mission. The latrines consisted of one or a series of limestone slabs placed horizontally across several upright pieces, and over a pit dug to receive the waste. Into the slab was cut a series of holes for the user's convenience."
Curious what word for toilet other than latrines would fit this description. And is it possible that Mexican artillery shells fell in the vacinity of the latrines? Makes for a frighteningly akward occurence!
Also, just a small tidbit, but I understand the federal hat was also called a common man's hat. The crown came in different variations throughout the 20's and 30's, it seems.
All the best, Wade
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Post by TRK on May 1, 2009 18:42:44 GMT -5
Curious what word for toilet other than latrines would fit this description. See the above. Also, if you were Hispanic, you might have called it the latrina(s) or the lugar comun, or a couple of other terms I won't repeat here ;D
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Post by Wade Dillon on May 1, 2009 18:56:27 GMT -5
Hey trk, The reason I ask is because it seems, as with sinks, that each word may have its own specific meaning when it comes to its type. Maybe I'm looking too far into this topic. Thank you, though! All the best, Wade
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Post by marklemon on May 1, 2009 20:27:40 GMT -5
Wade, Make sure you don't use the expression "O.K." in your book, as it just misses the 1836 time period. From Wikepedia:
Allen Walker Read identified the earliest known use of okay in print as 1839, in the March 23 edition of the Boston Morning Post (an American newspaper). The announcement of a trip by the Anti-Bell-Ringing Society (a "frolicsome group" according to Read) received attention from the Boston papers. Charles Gordon Greene wrote about the event using the line that is widely regarded as the first instance of this strain of okay, complete with gloss:
The above is from the Providence Journal, the editor of which is a little too quick on the trigger, on this occasion. We said not a word about our deputation passing "through the city" of Providence.—We said our brethren were going to New York in the Richmond, and they did go, as per Post of Thursday. The "Chairman of the Committee on Charity Lecture Bells", is one of the deputation, and perhaps if he should return to Boston, via Providence, he of the Journal, and his train-band, would have his "contribution box," et ceteras, o.k.—all correct—and cause the corks to fly, like sparks, upward.
Mark
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Post by bobdurham on May 12, 2009 14:40:34 GMT -5
I just ran across a cool expression while doing some primary research re the1832 Black Hawk War -- "to smell powder" -- to be in a fight, similar to the Civil War expression, "to see the elephant."
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Post by Hiram on Apr 15, 2010 12:46:01 GMT -5
I've always been intrigued by the 19th century idiom, "I've seen the elephant." Recently I was looking at Kendall's Narrative of the Texan Santa Fe Expedition and came across the following:
There is a cant expression, "I've seen the elephant," in very common use in Texas, although I have never heard it until we entered the Cross Timbers, or rather the first evening after we had encamped in that noted strip of forest land. I had already seen "sights" of almost every kind, animals of almost every species, reptiles until I was more than satisfied with the number and variety, and felt willing and able to believe almost anything I might hear as to what I was yet to see; but i knew very well that we were not in an elephant range, when I first heard one of our men say that he had seen the animal in question, I was utterly at a loss to fathom his meaning. I knew that the phrase had some conventional significance, but farther I was ignorant. A youngster, however, was "caught" by the expression, and quite a laugh was raised around the camp fire at his expense.
A small party of us were half sitting, half reclining, around some blazing fagots, telling stories of the past and speculating upon our prospects for the future, when an old member of the spy company entered our circle and quietly took a seat upon the ground. After a long breath and a preparatory clearing of his throat, the veteran hunter exclaimed, "Well, I've seen the elephant."
"The what?" said a youngster close by, partially turning round as to get a view of the speaker's face, and then giving him a look which was made up in equal parts of incredulity and inquiry.
"I've seen the elephant," coolly replied the old campaigner.
"But not a real, sure-enough elephant, have you?" queried the young speaker, with that look and tone which indicate the existence of a doubt and wish to have it promptly and plainly removed.
This was too much; for all within hearing, many of whom could understand and appreciate the joke, burst out in an inordinate fit of laughter as they saw how easily the youngster had walked into a trap, which although not set for that purpose, had fairly caught him; and I, too, joined in the merry outbreak, yet in all frankness I must say that I did not fully understand what I was laughing at. The meaning of the expression I will explain. When a man is disappointed in any thing he undertakes, when he has seen enough, when he gets sick and tired of any job that he may have set himself about, he has "seen the elephant." We had been buffeting about during the day, cutting away trees, crossing deep ravines and gullies, and turning and twisting fifteen or twenty miles to gain five--we had finally to encamp by a mud-hole of miserable water, and the spies had been unable to find any beyond--this combination of ills induced the old hunter to remark, "I've seen the elephant," and upon the same principle I will here state that I had by this time obtained something more than a glimpse of the animal myself.
Narrative of the Texan Santa Fe Expedition comprising a Tour through Texas with an account of the disasters that the Expedition encountered for want of food, and by attacks of Indians; The final capture of the Texians, and their sufferings as prisoners of Mexico. By George W. Kendall. Complete in two volumes. 1844.
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Post by Hiram on Apr 15, 2010 12:49:40 GMT -5
Point being, every member of this forum has more likely than not, "seen the elephant."
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 15, 2010 13:28:38 GMT -5
Oh, yeah. Interesting. I always thought it meant you'd been to the big city and seen all the amazing and wicked things you'd heard about on the farm, but never actually seen.
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Post by bobdurham on Apr 15, 2010 13:51:15 GMT -5
During the Civil War, the soldiers used that expression to mean they had seen combat. I always heard that it came from P. T. Barnum's expedition -- that you hadn't seen anything til you'd been to the expedition and seen his elephant.
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