San Fernando church question

[valerobowie]

Does anyone have any idea how big the San Fernando church was in 1836 before the restoration from the colonial style,length width and height if possible.

[marklemon]

valerobowie:

The 1836 San Fernando church was approximately 33 meters long (108.26ft) on the exterior, and 30 meters long (98.42ft)down the interior of the nave (its walls were slightly more than a meter thick). It was about 14 meters wide (45.93ft) at the transepts interior (the part that crosses the nave to form the classic cruciform shape), and roughly 16 meters wide (52.49ft) at the transepts exterior. I have to look a bit more in my notes for the various exterior heights. Hope this helps...
Mark

[valerobowie]

yes this helps a lot,thank you so much,by the way i LOVE your book,it has helped a lot in my model of the Alamo made entirely of cardboard as well as other materials.can you also tell me how tall it the San Fernando church was as well,i'm going to make a model to go along with my Alamo

[marklemon]

valerobowie,
Hey, thanks a lot, I'm glad you liked it, and that it is helping you...
Give me a while on the height, as that part of my notes has mysteriously disappeared, and as I'm cleaning my studio out, I'm sure I'll come across that data pretty soon.
Mark

[Rich Curilla]

I have before me Michael Corenblith's blueprint (plan view) of his San Fernando Church for Alamo04. I just checked the floorplan measurement against Mark's figures and they are exactly the same. I provided Michael with an archeologist's plat of San Fernando Cathedral with the parish plan superimposed, and I know Michael took special pains to get this building and the Alamo church as precise as possible -- without any movie scale modifications. What I do not recall is what he might have done to obtain the wall heights other than simply measure heights relative to lengths in existing photographs. But I know he tried very hard.

Hopefully, Mark has some exact hard figures from something (which I too would love to have). If not, then what I am suggesting is that, for any measurement you wish, I can measure his blueprint. Just for trial: his facade is 37 ft. high to the top of the molding element; the top of the lantern on top of the bell tower is 61 ft. high; the low refectory on the "north" side is 19-1/2 feet high. It is 20 ft. to the bottom of the niche and round windows above the entrance.

Mark, how does this play against your figures? The only thing I disagree with visually on Michael's set is the width of his bell tower. It appears, however, that it is correct on the blueprint and was altered during construction for some reason. Anyway, I'll be happy to measure whatever you need, if it'll help.

[valerobowie]

i really appreciate all the help regarding the san Fernando church i was wondering if you could tell me how wide the church front was as well as the width of the nave if this is possible,and is there any way i can obtain a copy of the blueprints of either the original or the movie version

[Rich Curilla]

Dustin, to augment the floorplan of San Fernando I sent you, Michael Corenblith's facade for the movie set is 46 feet wide on the blueprint. As for the nave, since Michael had no interior in the building, I can't get that from the blueprint, but it appears to be a bit less than six meters on the floorplan. Can't remember exactly how many inches in a meter (neither could Michael until a shoolteacher friend of mine informed us), but it is 39.something. Michael's outside dimensions of the nave are 27 feet. That's probably what you wanted anyway, huh? Hope this helps.

[bmoses]

The Center for Archaeological Research (CAR) has worked at the San Fernando Cathedral several times since the 1980s. One of the best descriptions I have seen regarding the early church structure comes from CAR’s 1975 report “Archaeological Investigations at San Fernando Cathedral, San Antonio, Texas” by Dan Fox, Dan Scurlock, and John Clark. This manuscript is the Office of the State Archeologist Special Report #22.

Here is the portion of the report containing the San Fernando architectural description. I am also including the plan map which shows the relationship of the earlier structure to the current configuration of the Cathedral - hope this helps:


Architectural Description

The San Fernando Cathedral is divisible into three principal architectural units constructed during three historic periods. Construction of the church of Nuestra Senora de la Candelaria y Guadalupe, the original church on the site, was begun during the 1730s. Later to become known as the Church of San Fernando, this structure was of cruciform design composed of an apse, two transepts, a nave and a single bell tower (Fig. 8; Morfi 1967:99). The sacristy probably adjoined the north wall of the apse. The front of the church faced east with a bell tower on the southeast corner.

The nave and transepts were barrel vaulted, and a dome, supported by an octagonal drum on pendentive, covered the juncture of the apse, transepts, and nave. The bell tower was square in form with an octagonal belfry and a faceted cupola. A large, sloping buttress, the bell tower walls abutting the south wall of the nave, and a series of three buttresses against the north wall carried the thrust of the nave's vaulted roof. The walls of the structure extended upward to form a simple parapet. Four rectangular pinnacles adorned the corners of the bell tower, and lanterns topped the dome and the bell tower cupola.

Located on the right side of the facade, the entrance to the church was situated on the central axis of the nave. The arched doorway was flanked by pilasters which supported a simple, decorative entablature.

The building was constructed of limestone rubble masonry and finished with a coat of plaster which was painted. A low wall, constructed probably of plastered stone, enclosed the church, church grounds, and cemetery in front of the church.

Certain exterior dimensions of the Spanish Colonial church can be estimated using architectural plans, early descriptions, and photographs of the church. The length of the structure measured ca. 32.8 m (39.23 Castillian varas) from the west wall of the apse to the facade. The width of the nave measured 8 m (9.57 Castillian varas); the facade, 13.7 m (17.39 Castillian varas); and the church at the transepts, 15.9 m (19 Castillian varas). The lantern of the dome was more than 13.5 m above the colonial surface and the top of the belfry was more than 20 m high. The walls of the church were approximately 10.2 m high.

With the post-statehood growth of the San Fernando parish in San Antonio it was deemed necessary to have a larger church. Architect Francois Giraud was commissioned in 1868 to construct the addition (Webb and Robinson 1974:148). Giraud designed a cathedral with a classical Gothic revival nave and twin bell towers (Webb and Robinson 1974:148). The east half of the original nave and bell tower projecting into the new nave were razed to a level 51ightly below the level designated for the wood floor of the cathedral. Then, the east-west sleeper walls made of colonial or colonial-style, handmade square bricks or tiles, were constructed to support the floor joists.

The Giraud construction had triple entrance portals, a gable roof, buttresses on the exterior of the nave, towers, and stained glass lancet windows. The cathedral was completed in 1873 without the south bell tower; this second tower was added in the early 20th century. Spires which had been designed for the bell towers were never erected.

During the early 20th century the two-story rectory was built of cut limestone around the rear of the colonial portion of the church, enclosing the transepts and apse (Webb and Robinson 1974:148). This addition includes the cathedral offices and a small auditorium built on a limestone foundation and faced with a type of stucco.

Enclosing the front 13.4 m of the Spanish church, the 1868-73 addition had a length of 33.2 m and a width of 22.9 m, excluding buttresses. The dimensions of the rectory are irregular: length of the south wall, 23.2 m; length of the north wall, 25.9 m, and width, 23.8 m; length of the west wall, 24.1 m.

The architectural changes of the 1974-76 renovation included the installation of air-conditioning ducts beneath the floors; installation of a new compound floor with a fired brick surface 3.8 cm above the terrazzo; application of a new roof covering of sheet copper; removal of the present confessionals and restoration of the walls; replastering of the wall around the stair in the north bell tower; relocation of the present altar forward from its present position in the nave of the colonial church to the nave of the 1868-73 addition; relocation of the baptistry from the south bell tower to the northwest corner of the 1868-73 church; refinishing of the pulpit; and placement of a stone walk and steps in front of the church. Other work included the stripping of plaster on the interior of the 1868-73 church and repointing the stone; the construction of new confessionals on the interior near the southeast corner; removal of tiles from the lantern of the dome; installation of a built-up roof around the dome; and restoration of the bell tower roofs. Future plans include removal of the rectory, construction of a new rectory south of the 18th-century church (with a garden area intervening), paving the area around the church with stone, and converting the parking lot into garden and space for future expansion.

[marklemon]

May 14, 2009 0:40:54 GMT -5 Rich Curilla said:

Dustin, to augment the floorplan of San Fernando I sent you, Michael Corenblith's facade for the movie set is 46 feet wide on the blueprint. As for the nave, since Michael had no interior in the building, I can't get that from the blueprint, but it appears to be a bit less than six meters on the floorplan. Can't remember exactly how many inches in a meter (neither could Michael until a shoolteacher friend of mine informed us), but it is 39.something. Michael's outside dimensions of the nave are 27 feet. That's probably what you wanted anyway, huh? Hope this helps.

Sorry to be so late in getting back to you on this question. I have the interior width of the nave as 6 meters (19' 8") but it does appear to be just a bit narrower, so you may want to shave off the 8".
Mark

[sloanrodgers]

An interesting history and detailed diagram. Thanks for posting it Mr. Moses.

[Allen Wiener]

Thanks Bruce; very informative and useful. For those who have not done so, I recommend walking up Commerce to the San Fernando and taking a look around. The alleged ashes of Alamo defenders are entombed in the vestibule. It's still an active church and I ran into a tour of the interior that pointed out the remaining original structures.

[Jake]

I noticed this thread while looking around at some of the other arguments/discussions going on. I worked on the crew that did this excavation -- In fact, I excavated most of the bell tower room and its doorway. As a result, I was surprised with the plan of the work when Danny published the interim report. You notice on the plan Bruce included above on May 15, 2009, how the wall of the nave of the church at the doorway to the bell tower doesn't line up with the wall of the nave farther west, closer to the transepts? I recall standing at the side of the unit where I was uncovering the bell tower doorway and sighting along the face of the wall as I had it uncovered, and seeing that it lined up precisely with the surviving section of wall farther west. In other words, I've always thought there was something wrong with this plan. but I've never had the time to go back to the files and cross-check to see if I'm misremembering.

[Rich Curilla]

May 12, 2010 12:20:32 GMT -5 Jake said:

I noticed this thread while looking around at some of the other arguments/discussions going on. I worked on the crew that did this excavation -- In fact, I excavated most of the bell tower room and its doorway. As a result, I was surprised with the plan of the work when Danny published the interim report. You notice on the plan Bruce included above on May 15, 2009, how the wall of the nave of the church at the doorway to the bell tower doesn't line up with the wall of the nave farther west, closer to the transepts? I recall standing at the side of the unit where I was uncovering the bell tower doorway and sighting along the face of the wall as I had it uncovered, and seeing that it lined up precisely with the surviving section of wall farther west. In other words, I've always thought there was something wrong with this plan. but I've never had the time to go back to the files and cross-check to see if I'm misremembering.

Wow, Jake. This really enlightens. The one question Michael Corenblith specifically asked me (and I could not answer) was, "Should the north wall of the bell tower be on the outside of the south wall of the nave or were they the same wall." He said the floorplan was confusing on this point. I think I said that my guess was that it should be the same wall -- just from knowing the Alamo and Concepcion. Sounds like somebody drew themselves into a corner!

[Jake]

The plan of the actual excavated areas look correct -- I suspect that the big group of units forming the south area of the excavation is mis-located within the church by about a wall thickness too far to the south.

That was a very interesting excavation, and it's too bad that a full, final report was never published. The THC (who were ultimately responsible for the work) had some sort of problem with the project at the time, and went for an interim report while the problem was worked out, and then never published the final version.

There was a big area of red-plastered wall on the interior of the bell tower, for example, and at least one burial within the bell tower, which was an odd place to put someone. The edges of the doorway from the church into the bell tower survived as the last sixteenth of an inch of the bottom edge of the white plaster of the wall of the doorway, and it had a wooden sill, which survived as the imprint of the wood grain of the sill in the plaster underneath it, and a little bit of brown powder of rotted wood. Just outside the doorway, I think it was, we found large (hand-sized) fragements of decorative stone carving broken off the carved frame around the bell tower door, apparently buried beneath a later floor. All the fragments were strongly fire-reddened, and we decided that they had shattered off the decorative carving during the (or one of the) big fire of the late eighteenth or early nineteenth centuries. Some of the pieces fit together, and we were able to work out at least a general idea of the appearance of the carving.

[Donald Hash]

On the diagram, the greyed walls (original church walls)... Are those the original parts of the church that remain, integrated into the present-day cathedral?

When inside there last month, my untrained eye didn't know what - if anything - to look for.