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Post by Wade Dillon on Feb 23, 2009 18:54:15 GMT -5
Hello everyone,
I've been reading the Menchaca memoirs, while researching for my graphic novel, and had two questions.
1.) Crockett and co., outside of the campo santo, sends one of the men with a request to be escorted into San Antonio de Bexar. Antonio Menchaca and James Bowie welcome and lead them into town. Did Crockett know Bowie was in town upon entering? I want to say yes, but wanted to get some of the opinions here.
And...
2.) Where was the ball, thrown in honor of Crockett's arrival, held on the evening of Feb.10th? No doubt, a ballroom, but where?
Many thanks!
All the best, Wade
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Post by stuart on Feb 24, 2009 1:59:53 GMT -5
Its possible Crockett knew Bowie was in Bexar, but probably unlikely that he regarded it as significant. However something that I don't recall is touched on in Davis' book is Crockett's likely attitude to Bowie. For his part we know Bowie could be charming and agreeable on first meeting, but on the other hand if Crockett did know of Bowie beforehand he may well have known of his dodgy land speculating activities and regarded him with suspicion and perhaps even distaste.
As to the ball(s); I'm not aware there was a dance hall in Bexar at this time although open to correction. My understanding is that Mexican tradition was for holding them in a plaza, or in the enclosed courtyard of a house - as in the Bowie wedding celebration scene in Alamo2004.
Possibilities for the Crockett bash might therefore include the Seguin town house or the Veramendi house, where Bowie was living.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Feb 24, 2009 7:09:03 GMT -5
I don't disagree with Stuart's comments regarding Crockett/Bowie, but I'll go one further and say that I doubt either of them had much interest in the other. Bowie, being a local, surely had plenty of personal business to keep him occupied, and Crockett was traveling with Tennessean's, which were likely his primary social circle. I doubt very much if these two were in the same orbits. They probably acknowledged each other, but my guess is it didn't go much farther than that. There's been a lot of speculation about the Crockett/Houston relationship as well. I'm of the opinion that most of this is wishful thinking from people who'd like to link two principal players. It is highly unlikely that Crockett and Houston were any more than acquaintances. Crockett mentions him in one letter but, from the context, it doesn't seem that the two are close. By 1834, few Jacksonians would have associated with Crockett, especially someone like Houston who was a Jackson protege. Likewise, Crockett probably had little interest in sharing his thoughts with a Jackson ally. He considered the Jacksonians responsible for his political loss, and was pretty bitter about it. Jim
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Post by stuart on Feb 24, 2009 8:18:15 GMT -5
Nothing like a happy working relationship eh... with the obvious rejoinder that it was indeed nothing like a happy working relationship.
Just to expand a little on what I said. Crockett probably did know of Bowie's land frauds since he was in Congress at the time, and given his record of opposing land speculation and the abuses perpetrated by men like Bowie - "notorious" sounds just about right.
Add into that the fact that Bowie was known to be Houston's man and there's further cause for avoiding him if Jim is correct (and I see no reason why not) that there was no linkage between Crockett and Houston.
That, however, raises a new and altogether more interesting question. Given the bad blood between Travis and Bowie, did Travis see Crockett as an ally and ultimately as Herb suggests on another thread, a useful if unofficial second in command after the siege actually began and Bowie was effectively out of the picture.
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Post by TRK on Feb 24, 2009 8:42:39 GMT -5
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 24, 2009 9:19:16 GMT -5
I have to go along with Jim. Although Houston had been in and out of Tennessee politics, he was clearly a Jackson man. Crockett was never comfortable with the Jacksonians and was suspicious of them almost from the beginning. I don't think that he and Houston ever travelled in the same circles and would have been political opponents. That does not mean they would not have been cordial to one another had they met, however. Crockett's mention of Houston is more in the way of gossip regarding Houston's sudden resignation as governor of Tennessee.
My guess is that Crockett went to Texas because there was no future for him in Tennessee, and he had tired of the frustrations he'd experienced in Congress. Crockett had always associated land with opportunity and I think that's what he was looking for in Texas. He spoke of becoming a land agent in Texas and he may even have thought of finding Houston to explore that prospect. He may have volunteered because of the land bounties such volunteers were promised. Crockett (like most of these guys) was a risk taker. He hadn't hesitated to volunteer for the Creek War and signing up for the Texas war, especially with a rich prize in land to be had, was consistent with his behavior. Any political ambtion he may have had in a future Texas would only be helped by his serving in the cause of Texas independence. Crockett was also fed up with the United States, Jacksonism and the impending presidency of Martin Van Buren, who he seems to have genuinely loathed. A new life in a new country might have seemed very tempting to him at that point. Note that most of the men who came with him to Texas went home when Crockett signed up.
As to Bowie, I was surprised to learn recently that even Jackson was aware of Bowie's land shenanegans and wrote to his associates about them. I have not seen the correspondence myself, but I discussed them with the folks at the Jackson Papers project in Knoxville. Apparently, Jackson regarded Bowie with even more disdain than he levelled at Crockett.
I can't recall if it was in Davis or elsewhere that I got the impression that Crockett was closer to Travis than Bowie, and that Travis took a genuine liking to Crockett. I believe that Crockett testified in support of Travis's case in a court martial against a Bowie man prior to the siege. I can't recall any evidence that put Bowie and Crockett together in any way. It's possible that Crockett was aware of Bowie's land deals, if Jackson was, and did look upon him with some suspicion. In any case, given Bowie's illness and isolation, it's not likely they spent much time together. On the other hand, Travis is likely to have regarded Crockett as a senior, experienced guy on whom he could rely for advice or guidance. To the extent that Crockett was close to Travis it would have made him distant from Bowie. I also agree that Bowie and Crockett each had their own circle of friends/family in Bexar and in the Alamo.
There does seem to have been some connection among these 3 men in Bowie's charging Travis and Crockett with the care of Juana and Gertrudis when he was isolated in the hospital.
AW
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 24, 2009 9:36:03 GMT -5
Hey - here's a hypothetical scene that might have taken place between Crockett and Bowie. When Crockett arrives in Bexar, and meets Bowie, he mentions that he's come to Texas looking for land. Bowie, whose eyes light up, replies "Davy, have I got a deal for you!"
AW
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Post by rriddle3 on Feb 24, 2009 12:19:13 GMT -5
...There does seem to have been some connection among these 3 men in Bowie's charging Travis and Crockett with the care of Juana and Gertrudis when he was isolated in the hospital. AW I don't have it in front of me, but in "Blood of Noble Men" are there not several quotes from Juana regarding Crockett checking regularly on Bowie during his illness? If so, I would not think any possible resentment by Crockett could have amounted to much.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Feb 24, 2009 13:45:27 GMT -5
I didn't mean to imply animosity between Bowie and Crockett, just that I don't think they'd have had much of a personal relationship. I think it would have had more to do with logistics than anything else; Crockett would likely have gravitated to Tennesseans, and Bowie to his own friends.
I don't think it's likely that Crockett would have wanted to have anything to do with Houston, or vice versa, because of Houston's well known connection to Jackson. Crockett might not have interpreted Bowie's allegiance to Houston as anything other than friendship; he might not have seen it as a political alliance, but he certainly would have viewed the Houston/Jackson relationship as political, since Houston was, in effect, Jackson's point man in Texas.
Contrary to some of the things that have been written about him, Crockett wasn't naive. He was a pretty good judge of character, and he probably knew the back story on all the political alliances around him in Texas. In that respect, he was a lot more like Fess Parker's portrayal than Billy Bob's.
As for his relationship with Travis, I think that's anyone's guess. Travis mentioned him in an admirable context, but that's all we have. I wonder if Travis would have looked to Crockett for council. Travis had a reputation for being pretty headstrong, and I'm not sold that he looked to anyone else for advice.
Jim
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Post by marklemon on Feb 24, 2009 13:59:48 GMT -5
...There does seem to have been some connection among these 3 men in Bowie's charging Travis and Crockett with the care of Juana and Gertrudis when he was isolated in the hospital. AW I don't have it in front of me, but in "Blood of Noble Men" are there not several quotes from Juana regarding Crockett checking regularly on Bowie during his illness? If so, I would not think any possible resentment by Crockett could have amounted to much. I believe that the account you are referring to in "Blood" comes not from Juana Alsbury, but "madame" Candalaria, who's account seems to be a mix of some truth and a lot of fantasy. So it is hard to know what to make of the Crockett/Bowie interfaces mentioned therein.
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Post by rriddle3 on Feb 24, 2009 14:28:31 GMT -5
Quite possible, Mark. That's the problem with trying to rely on memory.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 24, 2009 15:14:30 GMT -5
Also, relationships may have changed or developed during the seige. Finding themselves in such a tight spot together, it is only natural that some of these issues would not have mattered after some point. I think Bowie's illness would have been troublesome to everyone because he was seen as a leader who had battled his way out of a few tight spots himself.
AW
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Post by Wade Dillon on Feb 24, 2009 16:50:00 GMT -5
Thank you for the quick, informative posts everyone!
According to the Menchaca memoirs, which were dictated to Charles M. Barnes, immediately upon Crockett's arrival, Bowie, Travis, Neill, and all the officers joined together, to establish guards for the safety of the city, they fearing that the Mexicans would return. This, to me, implies that Crockett and Bowie would've had a working relationship, atleast. Including Bowie's mention of Travis and Crockett caring for Juana and Gertrudis Alsbury on the west wall, it's a fair assumption. Then again, I can see Jim's point of why they'd have little interest for one another.
Also, in the Menchaca memoirs, a courier arrives at around 1 a.m. on the 11th during the fandango, with news regarding the approach of the Mexican Army. Bowie alerts Travis, who was dancing with the most beautiful lady in San Antonio. Bowie tells Travis the letter is greatly important and to leave his partner. Travis does so and brought Crockett with him. I'd say this leans towards Allen W's post of Crockett being closer to Travis and acting as counsellor to him.
Certainly, Menchaca was very much a prominant citizen of San Antonio and eye witness to much of the conflict. Do we have any reason to question the validity of his memoirs?
All the best, Wade
P.S. Allen, You will find Crockett mentioned in a letter from Travis regarding the court martial of D.H. Barre on page 24 of The Alamo Reader.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 24, 2009 17:16:16 GMT -5
Yes, Wade; that is the letter I was thinking of. It's too bad the actual statements of Crockett and others did not survive with the letter. I notice this letter is dated February 13, the same day Travis wrote to Gov. Henry Smith complaining that Bowie was drunk all the time and opening the prisons, allowing those convicted by courts martial to go free (pp.22-23 in Hansen). I wonder if Barre was one of those he released.
AW
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Post by Wade Dillon on Feb 24, 2009 17:28:47 GMT -5
That's exactly what I thought when I read it, Allen. So much has been lost to time! Who knows what other correpondence Crockett sent out.
I, too, think Barre could've been one of the men Bowie released. It's escaped me, but when did the drunken escapades and release of prisoners occur? February 12th? Or over the coarse of a few days?
Clearly, Travis not only sought Crockett for council, but also for personal leverage. An ambitious man such as Travis would've wanted Crockett on his side.
Wade
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