Descendants of the Siege of Bexar

[lorinfriesen]

I just thought to mention that the Descendants of the Siege of Bexar are meeting at the Alamo this Saturday. I believe their meetings start at 9:00 am at Alamo Hall. If you are a descendant...

[stuart]

I am, but I suspect I won't be able to make it this time around :-)

[chas4001]

My ggg-uncle fought at the Siege but cannot qualify to join because I am not direct descendent. James Bird was divorced and had no children. He fought in many battles and was a Captain in the Militia from Gonzales.
Did Descendents of Big Foot Wallace get admitted even though this person was not a direct Descendent? Seems like I could get admitted if this was the case.
I am sure you are not the person to ask, but when I read your post it generated the thought and question and maybe someone can answer my question and perhaps how I could get around this rule.
Thanks,
Charles

[sloanrodgers]

Jun 4, 2009 18:16:43 GMT -5 @chas4001 said:

Did Descendents of Big Foot Wallace get admitted even though this person was not a direct Descendent? Seems like I could get admitted if this was the case.
I am sure you are not the person to ask, but when I read your post it generated the thought and question and maybe someone can answer my question and perhaps how I could get around this rule.

I'm the person to ask on all things Bigfoot or anything on Jack Hays's ranger company, but
I'm not sure I understand the question. Bigfoot didn't arrive in Texas until Nov. 1837, so he
couldn't have been at the battlle of Bexar. Also, are you saying that you are a descendant
of Mr. Wallace? I've been under the impression for years that he had no known children, but
many nephews and nieces, thus no descendants. That would be a helluva rule to circumvent.

[yeluacm]

My ancestor was in Texas at the time, but from what can be gleaned of the records, he evidently took no military role during the campaign of 1835 and 1836. In fact, I have an indenture involving his purchase of another man's headright on the very day the siege of Bexar commenced:

"Know all men by these presents that I Hardin Wright Have this day Bargained Sold and delivered unto Alvey R. Johnson My Labor of Land lying Joining David Stricklands Survey in Turnahaw District with all the labour done upon said Land for and in consideration of the sume of One Hundred and fifty dollars to me in Hand paid the receipt whereof I Hereby acknowledge said Land to Have and to Hold I Further Bind myself not having received my Title to said Land I Bind my self in case I stay in the country and receive a Title From Govrment I then Bind my self to give the said Johnson A firm Title To said Land and if I should Leave To give the said Johnson a power of attorney To act in my name and stead To make the necefsary afsignments to fulfilling contract in Clearing out said Land To which I Bind my self my Heirs Executors Administrators or afsigns &c this the Fifth day of December 1835 in Testimony Wherof I Have Hereunto set my hand and affixed by seal, Hardin Wright X his mark {seal}." Witnessed by Hancock Smith and George Butler.

Later, on 18 March 1836, he again made another land purchase, for the headright of Henry Hobson for a league and labor of land, which one day before the date of this last purchase, delegates at the Convention of March 1, 1836 adopted and affirmed the Constitution of the Republic of Texas, in which the following statement is contained in Section 10 of the General Provisions:

"And whereas many surveys and titles to lands have been made whilst most of the people of Texas were absent from home, serving in the campaign against Bexar, it is hereby declared that all the surveys and locations of land made since the act of the late consultation close the land offices, and all titles to land made since that time, are, and shall be null and void."

In consequence of this clause, he lost his purchase of Hardin Wright's labor, and it was not until 1845 that Alvey R. Johnson recovered Hobson's headright in the District Court of Shelby County. Quite interestingly, in January 1839 while serving in the Third Congress he had introduced a bill entitled 'an Act authorizing the county and district courts'!

[Rich Curilla]

I am scheduled to give a talk on the "Battle of Bexar" (Dec. 5 to 9, 1835) -- not to be confused with the Siege of Bexar (October 28 to December 9) -- at the Alamo Society Symposium at the Menger Hotel in San Antonio next March. This will be complete with a PowerPoint presentation to illustrate the on-the-ground location of all movements using my virtual San Antonio de Bexar, 1835-1836 model. I am now in the midst of thorough research for this and will be preceding it with an article in The Alamo Journal in December.

[rayjr]

Rich,

I am a direct descendant of a participant of the "Battle of Bexar" perhaps a subset of the "Siege".  I descend from Louis Castanon, a Texano in Captain Seguin's company.  I don't have a lot of details on this - but the Republic of Texas Pension rolls document a petition awarded (1874) in which he states being a member of Juan's company during the battle (other sources indicate cavalry work), a participant of Deaf Smith's Laredo campaign (ordered - but not yet proven - on behalf of William S Fisher, temporary Secretary of War), as well as, accompanying Henry Karnes and John Coffee Hayes after Agaton Quinones, a documented member of Antonio Perez's Texas Ranger company in 1841 - the petition is signed by Juan Seguin and Antonio Menchaca.  He is also listed on Seguin's letter to controller Darden in 1875.  

Anyway, he was a good friend of my ancestor Edward Brown who originally arrived in Galveston on July 19th, 1836 in the ROT army to guard prisoners taken at San Jacinto on the island.  (Member of William D. Burnett company).  Edwards story is involved - so I won't bore you with the details - but his son James married the daughter of Louis - Leonides (a fitting name don't you think - although for a female).

James Brown and Leonides begat Victoriano, who begat Ramon, who begat Raymond, who had me Raymond Victor Brown Jr  So I guess I am 6th generation.

I am very interested in your presentation, needless to say...
Ray

[rayjr]

Rich, 
I thought I would add that - what you probably already know - supposedly the front door to the "Priest's House" - I am sure you know which one - is stored in the back room of the Governor's Palace - I re-copied my post from 2014 below...

"December 8 broke cold and wet. The same companies that took Zambrano's row, rushed and broke in the north side of the Priest's house.

They did not gain complete possession of this place, however, but hung on till nightfall when they were reinforced by the companies of Captains Swisher, Alley and Duncan. Still they could not take the building, and were further reinforced by Captain York's company under Lieutenant Gill. The cannonading of the enemy was extremely heavy all day. About midnight it was uncertain that Cos had received about 500 reinforcements. At this time Captains Chesire, Lewis and Sutherland brought their companies up from the old mill to reinforce the Texans. Forming up near the remains of the Garza house, the companies of Captains Cook and Patton, with a company of New Orleans Grays and a company of Brazoria Volunteers, rushed the Priest's house in the face of a terrific fire, and with the help of those already in it, drove the Mexicans out, killing and wounding about 50 of them."

"Rich,

It is in the back room - you have to look for it. It is not hung - but simply placed leaning up against a back wall. It has a contemporary frame around it - I suspect mainly to provide support for the integrity of the wood paneling in the door. I think they mentioned they had plans to mount it - but have not been back in over a year - so not up to date.

The reason why I wanted to post the photo is so that you can get a look at the unique panel formation of the door. It actually has carved panels and then joined in sort of a coffered non-symmetrical pattern. I thought this might be useful for modelers to incorporate in their rendering of the period structures.

I agree it is probably Padre Maines. But it is also possible that any door on the square during the "Siege" might have been irreparably damaged during the conflict or later during the flood.

It remains an open question in my mind - where was Padre Fuentes' house as he was the resident Padre for just under 20 years up until 1790? Would a Padre that held the position for San Fernando for so long be so easily forgotten that all subsequent holders were more recognized locally as "THE Priest's House"? Would the town acknowledge multiple houses - or just the current one? His father Toribio occupied the property adjacent to and just north of San Fernando Church. His brother Ramon was alcalde of San Antonio in 1794 (He held over 4000 acres underneath what today is Hemisfair Tower & Park). But I agree - it was over 30 years prior to the Siege.

We need the images - could not we create some kind of archive of older posted images such that fresh ones could continue to be added. If an older image is relevant it could be re-posted for discussion. For example, many of the images are iterations of much of the great modeling work being performed. Could older iterations be discarded, leaving current versions for discussion? I agree - we gotta have em

Regards,
Ray"

[Rich Curilla]

Ray, I actually have not seen (or noticed) the Priest's House door in the Governor's Palace -- and I can't find where we (obviously, from your comments) discussed this before, so I may be restating the obvious.

Apparently, the understanding in the late 19th. century regarding the Battle of Bexar's "Priest's House" was that of Padre Maines, which seems to have been located on the west end of the north side block of Military Plaza. William Corner, in his 1890 guide and history to "San Antonio de Bexar" presented a map showing his understanding of the line of Texian attack in taking the Priest's House (as Padre Maines') and even has the Texians taking Zambrano Row from the north end to the south end as a path to the Navarro House! This is all very convoluted and clearly not what the participants said -- and yet remained the scenario during the LBAB period (my abbreviation for "Life Before Alwyn Barr"). Somewhere on this site resides Bruce Moses post of the Corner Plat showing Corner's interpretation. Barr used it in his excellent 1990 book "Texans in Revolt" but wisely "adapted" it from Corner's version to eliminate these errors.

After resorting only to primary accounts and getting some great archival help on deed records from fellow researcher Edward Aranda, there is no longer any (ANY) question in my mind that the "Priest's House" referred to in the Battle of Bexar was (1) located on the north side of Main Plaza (second of four 60 foot wide lots going west from the Soledad St. corner), that (2) it was indeed the home of Refugio de la Garza and indeed in the perfect position for the Texians' access to their goal, Main Plaza and the arsenal in the Church, and (3) was the weak link in Cos' defenses (at least by December 8).

I am no longer concerning myself in my current research with Padre Fuentes' home since it played no part in the battle, but my understanding has been that it was on the N.W. corner of Main Plaza. Perhaps this is based simply on the fact that Fuentes tried (and may have succeeded) in gaining permission from the Ayuntamiento to add a second story, and this building had a second story in mid-19th. century photographs as well as the William G. M. Samuel paintings of the plaza in 1849. The approval was pending (I believe) based on his willingness to only put second story windows on the south and east sides in order to provide privacy for the adjacent properties on the north and west sides. This fits that corner building perfectly.

Regarding the door in the Governor's Palace, its provenance as being or not being from Fr. Refugio's house would possibly be clearer if we knew when the Governor's Palace acquired the door. If it was there in pre-Adina de Zavala save-the-building days, and if it was acquired say in the 1890's, then it is probable it is from Padre Maines home, since that was caddy-corner from the G.P. and then believed (ludicrously) to have been the key to gaining Main Plaza.

Regarding Refugio de la Garza's house on Main Plaza, I am now of the opinion that all remaining images of the house (even the earliest in the W.G.M. Samuel painting) are of the structure as completely rebuilt after the revolution adding the second story which later became the Plaza House Hotel. Eye witness accounts of the battle assure us that the building was heavily demolished during the night of its occupation by the Texians (December 8) by a 4 pounder and a 5 inch brass howitzer located less than 300 feet away in the camposanto in front of San Fernando Church. There is no mention anywhere of the building in question having been a 2-story. In fact, Hermann Erhenberg, who was in Johnson's column which took the Veramendi house, clearly described the buildings in front of him on the north side of the plaza by saying, "They were all only one-story high and built in the form of a long box."

[Rich Curilla]

Ray, please see your Personal Message from me regarding sending photo in relation to our above posts.

[rayjr]

Rich,

Well this is interesting.  I have both Corner and Barr - and I think you are right about the confusion between the two plazas.  I believe you are right about the Garza location on Main Plaza - as I think this fits the progression of the Battle very well.  I would note that it seems interesting to move from Zambrano Row across Acequia st all the way to the NE end of the plaza - but alas my copy of Barr is in Dallas at the moment.  I agree Fuentes is not relevant to the Battle of 1835 - but it is interesting that both Garza and Fuentes were Priests and that both were purportedly located on Main Plaza.  It would seem Fuentes was on NW and Garza was on NE (obviously separated by 30 yrs) - but to your point, it may be that they were all single story (the petition having potentially failed).  I also have the Bexar archive documents for the petitions (they are online) - it would seem the windows would be permitted on the South and West facing open streets if on the NW corner rather than South and "East" as east would overlook the neighbor in the direction of the Garza location.  I can double-check...

It would seem that it might be worthwhile to clear up potential confusion between the 3 priest house scenario, the 2 story question, and the dueling plazas - I suspect many may be as confused as I.  Perhaps Edward Aranda has more information to nail all 3 deed locations.

You are definitely right about the notion of attacking Maine's House - even the Corner map should have challenged belief...

I will check the message board.  The person at the GP did not have any info on the door - perhaps another contact there could provide provenance details.
Best regards,
Ray
PS.  I still wonder how you will cover the Tejano Cavalry during the "Battle" - it will help me with context for Louis involvement Hmmm - was Antonio Perez also engaged?

[Rich Curilla]

Unfortunately, the Tejano cavalry will be off-scene, although definitely referred to. Their task was scouting for Ugartechea and Sanchez-Navarro coming with the Mexican "reinforcements," at least until he arrived during the day of the 8th. My presentation will be Bexar-centric and aimed at clearing up some of these continuing errors in understanding the actual battlefield.

Regarding the two plazas, I am beginning to get the impression that some of the Texian participants referred to them as one in their memoirs and interviews. They would say things like, "The plaza with a church in the middle." This confuses the issue even more. However, I believe they were simply pushing their front forward toward both. After all, many of the soldados were quartered in the old presidio barracks which was on Plaza de Armas, across the street corner from the Navarro house, and there was a Mexican battery behind the north side of the plaza which could have been the goal for Texians in the Zambrano Row.

The note attached tot he door in the Governor's Palace (which does come from a written account, though not a primary witness) makes it sound like the same guys took the Priest's House that took the Navarro and Zambrano Row. This was not the case. I'm too pooped right now to dig for and list the companies, but a completely different group headed for the Priest's House from the Jose Antonio de la Garza house via a previously captured house half way in between. This was somewhere between 10:00 P.M. and midnight of December 8. The Navarro house and Zambrano row were taken in the early part of the day -- and held and defended by the captors, who clearly had their hands full doing so. Everything that happened at the Priest's House was in the dark and at daybreak on the 9th., when Sanchez-Navarro approached with the white flag.