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Post by Herb on Apr 13, 2010 11:21:41 GMT -5
It looks like to me it was about 650 - 750 yards (straightline) from the Alamo's North Battery to the Mill. Gary or Kevin might know the exact distance.
Depending on the route the patrol took, I don't think there was too much risk of their being cut off from the Alamo except for extremely bad luck. At least between the Mill and the Alamo, now the further upriver they went that danger would obviously increase.
Travis and the garrison knew, especially after the Mexican reinforcements arrived that day, that their only hope of victory was the arrival of friendly reinforcements. But, that was also dependent upon them having a safe route into the Alamo (as well as an escape route for the garrison if Travis decided there was no hope for reinforcement). In either case a prudent commander would attempt to find out if there was still a route open.
While I don't think the operation was that much of a risk, there was obviously some risk involved. But, the intelligence the patrol could gather, was essential, imo, for Travis to draw an accurate picture of the new military situation, that the Mexican reinforcements had created.
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Post by Hiram on Apr 13, 2010 11:35:55 GMT -5
Google maps, utilizing a walking route which is fairly direct, puts it at 8/10ths of a mile. As the cannonball flies, I would estimate 7/10ths of a mile from Gibbs Building to Providence HS, which matches the approximate locations in 1836.
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Post by Hiram on Apr 13, 2010 11:57:46 GMT -5
In terms of yards, 7/10th of a mile converts to 1232 yards. I'm using Providence High School as a location for the sugar mill based on the archaeological evidence of a mill trace adjacent to the Drought House which is located on the campus of Providence.
Waynne Cox put the location of the mill "on a now-vanished bend of the river near the present-day intersection of Brooklyn and North St. Mary's Streets, it was powered by a cortador, a lateral ditch off the original return channel of the Upper Labor Acequia.
(Providence HS is one block N of Brooklyn between 8th and 9th Streets on North St. Mary's.)
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Post by Herb on Apr 13, 2010 12:37:45 GMT -5
Thanks, Hiram, that's a lot better than my "guessimate" of where the riverbend used to be!
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Post by Hiram on Apr 14, 2010 10:21:12 GMT -5
Just to clarify (and/or self-correct), the distances I referred to are to the Molino Blanco, not the sugar mill. I think Bruce Moses had a post on another thread placing the de la Garza mill (sugar mill) near 4th Street on the west bank of the river, that's probably just under half a mile (maybe 750-800 yards).
A sally to the sugar mill and an artillery position there makes more sense in terms of reducing the amount of risk faced by reconnoitering.
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Post by billchemerka on Apr 14, 2010 10:40:27 GMT -5
In the next (June) issue of The Alamo Journal: "A Summary Critique of Thomas Ricks Lindley’s Second Reinforcement Theory" by Todd Hansen, author of The Alamo Reader.
Issue #157 will be mailed to all Alamo Society members in May.
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Post by jamesg on Mar 25, 2012 22:35:27 GMT -5
I Know I'm Late on this subject..... but I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents Stephen L Moore's rebuttal of the 2nd Alamo Reinforcement Published in "Dispatches" at the Texas Ranger Museum website is the best I've seen.
John T Ballard is who Tom Lindley based his claim of Tumlinson's Rangers in the Second attempt. I looked at his Audited Claim in the Texas State Libary when I was searching for Ranger's in John J. Tumlinson's Ranger Company hoping to re-create The Roster of the Tumlinson's Rangers. (Which has never been correct in Publications such as Smithwick's book and even Steven L.Moore's Vol 1 Savage Frontier.) Interesting Fellow Ballard..Discharged from Alamo Feb 17th by Lt. Col. Neil, was with Lt.Kimbel's Gonzales Ranger's to reach the Alamo, but says in a Statement He was cut off from others trying to reach the fortress by Mexican spies. He later joined Tumlinson's Rangers..later Capt Rabb's Company to fight at San Jacinto. I confess when reading It I thought it confirmed some Tumlinson's Ranger's made to at least Gonzales ... Because of a small passage in a Book about the Battle of San Jacinto,,where mustering a group of Volunteers at Gonzales had horses.When told they had to give up their horses and be infantry they refused and left.
Just Speculation on my part HERE. Maj. R. M Williamson of all The Texas Ranger's shows up in Gonzales 24 Feb 1836 and starts organizing a new Ranger Company/relief force and writing several Letters to Mina and The Council in San Felipe on the very subjects. Including His March 1 letter to Travis. I believe Maj. Williamson had a detachment of Tumlinson Rangers from Mina with him when he went to Gonzales My Logic: cannot see the Leader of all the Texas Rangers traveling alone with Indian threats, bandits, and the upcoming Mexican Invasion. When Relieved at Gonzales to return to Mina I believe John Ballard was with Williamson and his Security Detachment. Returned to Bastrop Williamson would split up Tumlinsons Rangers for various duties Escorting fleeing familes, Rear Guard and Spy duty. Last comment: Major RM Williamson's letter to Travis Mar 1 1836 can be found written in Spanish in the Suplemento al Dairo del Goblerno Num 326 Ton IV found in the DRT Libary Its a Report from Santa Anna..one can speculate He inflated Williamson's numbers as he did with the Alamo Casulaties. my 2cents Whew...
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Post by Hollowhorn on Mar 26, 2012 14:39:45 GMT -5
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Post by sloanrodgers on Mar 26, 2012 17:46:12 GMT -5
I Know I'm Late on this subject..... but I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents Stephen L Moore's rebuttal of the 2nd Alamo Reinforcement Published in "Dispatches" at the Texas Ranger Museum website is the best I've seen. John T Ballard is who Tom Lindley based his claim of Tumlinson's Rangers in the Second attempt. I looked at his Audited Claim in the Texas State Libary when I was searching for Ranger's in John J. Tumlinson's Ranger Company hoping to re-create The Roster of the Tumlinson's Rangers. (Which has never been correct in Publications such as Smithwick's book and even Steven L.Moore's Vol 1 Savage Frontier.) Interesting Fellow Ballard..Discharged from Alamo Feb 17th by Lt. Col. Neil, was with Lt.Kimbel's Gonzales Ranger's to reach the Alamo, but says in a Statement He was cut off from others trying to reach the fortress by Mexican spies. He later joined Tumlinson's Rangers..later Capt Rabb's Company to fight at San Jacinto. I confess when reading It I thought it confirmed some Tumlinson's Ranger's made to at least Gonzales ... Because of a small passage in a Book about the Battle of San Jacinto,,where mustering a group of Volunteers at Gonzales had horses.When told they had to give up their horses and be infantry they refused and left. Just Speculation on my part HERE. Maj. R. M Williamson of all The Texas Ranger's shows up in Gonzales 24 Feb 1836 and starts organizing a new Ranger Company/relief force and writing several Letters to Mina and The Council in San Felipe on the very subjects. Including His March 1 letter to Travis. I believe Maj. Williamson had a detachment of Tumlinson Rangers from Mina with him when he went to Gonzales My Logic: cannot see the Leader of all the Texas Rangers traveling alone with Indian threats, bandits, and the upcoming Mexican Invasion. When Relieved at Gonzales to return to Mina I believe John Ballard was with Williamson and his Security Detachment. Returned to Bastrop Williamson would split up Tumlinsons Rangers for various duties Escorting fleeing familes, Rear Guard and Spy duty. Last comment: Major RM Williamson's letter to Travis Mar 1 1836 can be found written in Spanish in the Suplemento al Dairo del Goblerno Num 326 Ton IV found in the DRT Libary Its a Report from Santa Anna..one can speculate He inflated Williamson's numbers as he did with the Alamo Casulaties. my 2cents Whew... So far as Tumlinson's ranger company, I would respectfully say very late. A few years ago on the old Alamo Film Site, I showed how anyone can track this company's movements from Bastrop to East Texas by using Smithwick's book and the republic claims of the men in the unit. Supposedly, this had Lindley believing I was Stephen L. Moore in disguise. I don't think there was a concerted effort to relieve the Alamo by any, but the Gonzales thirty-two. There seem to have been little political or military organization to be its saviors, which is disapointing for the supportive Anglo and Tejano population of the time.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Mar 26, 2012 18:33:33 GMT -5
Considering the badly disorganized state of the Texas revolution at that point, the scattered and independent nature of the various units under Fannin, Grant, Johnson and Travis (who actually shared command with Bowie for a time), and Houston's "command" of a virtually non-existent regular army, we're left to wonder where the several Alamo commanders expected help to originate. The lack of a central command that could rely on troops carrying out orders must have doomed any effort to organize anything, including a relief force for the Alamo.
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Post by jamesg on Mar 26, 2012 20:53:43 GMT -5
SRK would you direct me to where I can find your comments on the Tumlinsons Company Movements on this old site. I have a personal interest as 3 of my Gray ancestors were in this Ranger outfit, and have been trying to piece its history together for accouple years now.. and also tracked its movememnts...BUT.. You May have on that old site some info I may have overlooked.. and I ALWAYS looking for more info. Thanks Mucho Jim Gray
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Post by sloanrodgers on Mar 26, 2012 21:12:17 GMT -5
SRK would you direct me to where I can find your comments on the Tumlinsons Company Movements on this old site. I have a personal interest as 3 of my Gray ancestors were in this Ranger outfit, and have been trying to piece its history together for accouple years now.. and also tracked its movememnts...BUT.. You May have on that old site some info I may have overlooked.. and I ALWAYS looking for more info. Thanks Mucho Jim Gray Well, the key word there was, Old and the Alamo Film Site site is now defunct. if I recall correctly some of the topic threads were saved on another website, but I don't know the site address. Sorry, I can't be more helpful.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Mar 26, 2012 21:49:17 GMT -5
SKR, you really need to get some of your research in print format. You've done a ton of fine work over the years that should be documented and attributed, not lost in the ether.
Jim
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Post by sloanrodgers on Mar 26, 2012 22:42:47 GMT -5
SKR, you really need to get some of your research in print format. You've done a ton of fine work over the years that should be documented and attributed, not lost in the ether. Jim Thanks for the compliment, but as I always say, while I'm a great ranger researcher, I'm a poor righter. I'd rather help authors like my compadre Mike and others. I have been honored to be plagerized a few times on the web. I am thinking about rewriting the Handbook of Texas' mistake-riddled biography on John Glanton and seeing if they will publish it. They haven't always accepted my little corrections. I believe Glanton's entire life prior to his Oct. 1846 marriage to Joaquina Menchaca (the prettiest woman in Texas) was practically made up from whole cloth by authors Jeremiah Clemmons, Maj. Horace Bell, Col. Samuel Chamberlain and later 20th Century authors, who did little research on the historical person. Of course this will probablly irritate a few Blood Meridian fans, who think Glanton was the devil incarnate.
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Post by jamesg on Mar 27, 2012 1:04:29 GMT -5
SKR Your'e the Ranger expert..I'm in the learning mode and passionate on the subject and new to the forum. So If I repeat old subjects..just guide me in the right direct. I don't mind doing the homework. John Glanton...Wow what a history! See ya in the Ranger section.
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