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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 28, 2008 11:09:37 GMT -5
Good questions, Glenn. Well, we know Mendoza was still in the Alamo when the Texians moved in because Jameson specifically mentions him. As to the others, it's anyone's guess, but mine would be that, those who could be moved, were moved into town, although it's not certain the Tejanos who were sympathetic to the revolution would have welcomed them either. Some may have rejoined Santa Anna's forces (wasn't this true of Esparza's brother, who was in the Mexican army?).
AW
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Post by billchemerka on Jun 28, 2008 11:36:04 GMT -5
Good questions, Glenn. Well, we know Mendoza was still in the Alamo when the Texians moved in because Jameson specifically mentions him. As to the others, it's anyone's guess, but mine would be that, those who could be moved, were moved into town, although it's not certain the Tejanos who were sympathetic to the revolution would have welcomed them either. Some may have rejoined Santa Anna's forces (wasn't this true of Esparza's brother, who was in the Mexican army?). AW Indeed. Francisco Esparza, who lived in Bexar and was a member of Cos' Presidios, was Gregorio Esparza's brother. Francisco and his compatriots were a reserve force of sorts instructed by Santa Anna to be held in a state of military readiness when the siege commenced on Feb. 23. However, 22 years after the Battle of the Alamo, Francisco took an oath that he did not willingly join the Mexican Army. In Alamo...The Price of Freedom, Francisco Esparaza (portrayed by Alex Solis) is blessed before going into battle. At the end of the battle, Santa Anna (Enrique Sandino) shares Francisco's sorrow over finding Gregorio's body. It is a poignant scene; however,Esparza did not participate in the assault. He did however, supervise Gregorio's burial.
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Post by elcolorado on Jun 28, 2008 11:42:26 GMT -5
Jameson's description of Mendoza's location bit confusing. Was he being quartered in the low barracks as Wolf suggests?
Jameson also mentions two wounded officers being housed in the Alamo HQ. I would guess these may have been wounded Texans. If there were additional wounded Mexican officers, I think they would have shared quarters with Mendoza. Judging from Mark's drawings, there would have been ample space in the low barracks to accommodate additional beds.
Jameson dated his letter and plat 18 January. So it's anybodies guess as to Mendoza's status after that date. I imagine he was eventually relocated to a room/bed in town and was reunited with Cos and fellow comrade's when Santa Anna seized the town. No doubt Mendoza enjoyed watching the siege from the sidelines and took some satisfaction on March 6th.
Glenn
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 28, 2008 12:34:21 GMT -5
Jameson's description of Mendoza's location bit confusing. Was he being quartered in the low barracks as Wolf suggests? Confusing, indeed. I'm looking at the plat now in Hansen, which I realize is not the original (which is lost). He has the gun emplacement inside the main gate (marked "B") as "Temporary redoubts of stakes on end and rocks and dirt between, the long one is in front of the house inwhich Col. Mendoza now lies wounded." From the way I'm looking at this, he means that Mendoza was in the Low Barrack, quite possibly in the same room later occupied by Bowie. However, he labels the rooms in the Low Barrack as (C) The Guard House and (D) Soldiers quarters built up of stone houses. Maybe he meant that Mendoza was in one of the rooms on the west wall, near the battery. AW
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Post by Herb on Jun 28, 2008 18:36:47 GMT -5
It would have been very unusual for the wounded soldatos to not have been under the Texian care - except perhaps men who were too badly wounded originally to have been moved.
The fact that Mendoza was in the Alamo, along with Jameson's other two officers (probably the two wounded Mexican officers identified by Gregg) indicates that all of the wounded soldatos were being treated there. This only makes sense medically and logistically. You wouldn't create an additional burden on yourself by maintaining them in separate locations from your own wounded, wasting your doctors' efforts, and also adding requirements for orderlies and guards. Granted they may have been segregated, and should have been, but they logically should still have been in close proximity.
The Mexican Surgeon didn't give an exact number in his report but said around 50 had been left in Bexar.
I think Mendoza was probably held in a room on the West Wall - either the one room remaining of the Northern Castenada House or one of the rooms in the S. Castenada House before the siege began. A senior officer would have been held in semi-isolation and in one of the better rooms available.
I expect that those who were physically able to be moved were paroled early in the siege, and that Travis probably communicated to the Mexicans where the remaining wounded were being housed. Such was the courtesy of the time.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 28, 2008 21:14:32 GMT -5
Confusing, indeed. I'm looking at the plat now in Hansen, which I realize is not the original (which is lost). He has the gun emplacement inside the main gate (marked "B") as "Temporary redoubts of stakes on end and rocks and dirt between, the long one is in front of the house inwhich Col. Mendoza now lies wounded." From the way I'm looking at this, he means that Mendoza was in the Low Barrack, quite possibly in the same room later occupied by Bowie. However, he labels the rooms in the Low Barrack as (C) The Guard House and (D) Soldiers quarters built up of stone houses. Maybe he meant that Mendoza was in one of the rooms on the west wall, near the battery. AW I do not agree that Jameson's statement necessarily means that Mendoza was in the low barrack. You are basing that on the location of the redoubt, but, as I said before, this statement from Jameson suggests more than one redoubt, even though the second or third generation plat only shows one. Jameson's statement for letter "B" is as you said, but he does say "redoubts" (plural) and not "redoubt" (singular). The whole feature that he describes is one redoubt. If he is talking about redoubts, then the copies of Jameson's plat are wrong by only showing one -- and who knows which one of the missing ones (or the existing one) is "the long one," as he calls it. On the other hand, both Sanchez-Navarro plats show one redoubt only in the Alamo. So perhaps the plural form in Jameson's letter is his error or a printer's. If he does mean the redoubt at the main gate, then Mendoza could have been in the low barrack OR the northeast wing fronting the church. After all, the south end of this wing IS marked hospital on one of Labastida's plats. Perhaps seperating Mendoza from the Texian hospital in the Long Barrack was the beginning of a movement that carried ALL the wounded over there rather than upstairs (where NO eyewitness places a hospital after Jameson's January report).
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Post by stuart on Jun 29, 2008 4:07:52 GMT -5
It would have been very unusual for the wounded soldatos to not have been under the Texian care - except perhaps men who were too badly wounded originally to have been moved. I'm inclined to disagree. Those who were left behind were left behind precisely because they weren't capable of going anywhere and given the poverty of the garrison in terms of resources and their habitual indifference towards the soldados, I'd suggest that it would have been far more logical to billet them with Bexarenos. There's also the matter of James Grant's involvement. The late Tom Lindley was always inclined to treat documents he didn't care for far too narrowly and dismissed this on the grounds that (a) Grant although qualified wasn't acting as a doctor and (b) was wounded himself. While agreeing with both points I would suggest that what this really means is that Grant, who was after all a Mexican Federalist rather than an American, arranged to have Mendoza transferred up to the Alamo where Pollard could look after him more easily rather than leave him in some hovel in town.
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Post by elcolorado on Jun 29, 2008 9:00:08 GMT -5
Thanks for reminding me about Gregg's post. OK, so it appears three wounded Mexican officers were quartered and convalescing at the Alamo. But I'm highly skeptical the Texans took responsibility for all the Mexican wounded and were treating all of them at the Alamo.
A large majority of the injured soldados would have been wounded while defending the fortifications in town. I'm not sure it would have made good medical sense to transport all of Cos's wounded to the Alamo when space was available in town.
And I still find it hard to believe the Texans had the resources or the desire to care for all of the Mexicans left behind. The Texans were mainly a large group of rowdy, untrained and undisciplined Anglo volunteers from the U.S. Not trained militia or army regulars. And they were nearly destitute of resources, including medical supplies. And Dr. Pollard, who was in charge of dispensing care for the wounded, never mentioned treating all (or any) of the injured soldados.
And it's no secret that Cos had little regard for the Texan volunteers. He loathed and despised them. I don't believe he would have felt comfortable leaving his wounded men in the care of the victorious Anglos. Not if he could make other arrangements. I feel Cos would have made every effort to find accommodations in town - preferably with friendly and/or sympathetic tejanos.
When I think about it, I'm not sure the Texans were all that concerned about the wounded Mexicans. Cos and his army was defeated and paroled. Many volunteers foolishly believed the conflict and threat from Mexico was over. Some left Bexar and returned to there homes. What did it matter to them where an injured soldado was housed, who was treating them, or the quality of care they were receiving?
For me, I need to see more evidence, aside from three Mexican officers, that indicates the Texans accepted responsibility for all of Cos's wounded and that all were being cared for at the Alamo.
Glenn
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Post by Herb on Jun 29, 2008 11:45:47 GMT -5
When I think about it, I'm not sure the Texans were all that concerned about the wounded Mexicans. Cos and his army was defeated and paroled. Many volunteers foolishly believed the conflict and threat from Mexico was over. Some left Bexar and returned to there homes. What did it matter to them where an injured soldado was housed, who was treating them, or the quality of care they were receiving? For me, I need to see more evidence, aside from three Mexican officers, that indicates the Texans accepted responsibility for all of Cos's wounded and that all were being cared for at the Alamo. Glenn Ah, but you're missing two key points it doesn't matter what Cos (or for that matter what we) thought of the Texians. They thought of themselves as an army, and they were duty bound to conduct themselves as an army. Also, missing from your conclusion is the simple standards of human decency. Remember, this was not yet a War of Atrocities. Secondly, you're missing a second key point, Cos didn't have a choice - no matter what he thought. The wounded were part of his army. They were surrendered to the Texians along with the rest of his army. May some of the wonded ended up in Bexareno care? Certainly, but probably not many, the milk of human kindness only goes so far, and the number of people willing to take on the burden of caring for severly wounded is always limited. Cos had no right nor ability to make demands, and the Texian leadership, we know from their correspondence was trying hard not alienate the Bexarenos - at this time. Now, it would be interesting to see what if anything Cos negotiated at the surrender. Rich any word from Jenkins? Limited resources is never an excuse for not treating wounded captives - their treatment may further stretch already stretched supplies. But, let's be realistic here, medical treatment of the time was limited anyway, and other then amputations, removing bullets and changing bandages not much more was going to happen. Logistically, it makes no sense to maintain two hospital facilities one in the Alamo for the Texians and selected Mexican prisioners and one in Bexar for the treating of the rest of the Mexican wounded. In all probability, the only wounded soldatos, being maintained in Bexar were those expected to die shortly and couldn't be moved, eg belly wounds.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 29, 2008 15:46:03 GMT -5
Now, it would be interesting to see what if anything Cos negotiated at the surrender. Rich any word from Jenkins? Here's the whole text of the surrender terms (original, Spanish and lastly English-language versions of each page). The key provision here is: "15th. The sick and wounded of general Cos's army, together with a surgeon and attendants, are permitted to remain." There are no specifics about where the wounded were to be kept. www.tsl.state.tx.us/treasures/republic/bexar/cos1.htmlI should add that the terms called for the Texians to remain in Bexar and the Mexicans to remain in the Alamo until they left for the Rio Grande. Ipso facto, one would assume that Mexican wounded and surgeon(s) would have been in the Alamo, at least initially, perhaps still there when Jameson wrote his January report and mentioned Mendoza being in one room of the fort. AW
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Post by elcolorado on Jun 29, 2008 17:49:14 GMT -5
Oh, but he did...at least from what I have read. The surrender of Cos was not unconditional. If fact, Cos's negotiating team won numerous concessions from Burleson. There was no "take it or leave it" on the table.
Grab your copy of "Texian Iliad" and read the last two paragraphs on page 90. According to Doc's information, the Mexicans were allowed to leave their wounded behind under the a care of a surgeon. Admittedly, Doc doesn't say who he was but if a surgeon was attached to Cos's army then he probably remained behind with the injured soldados.
Cos was given six days to get his stuff together, so he had ample time to arrange care for his wounded.
And I find it rather odd that Dr. Pollard, Chief Medical Officer for the army in Bexar, says nothing about providing care for Cos's men. Had Pollard been made accountable for treating the wounded Mexicans you would think he would have mentioned it to the Governor. I mean if the Government was accepting responsibility for providing medical care for injured soldados, wouldn't they want to know about it?
Glenn
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Post by elcolorado on Jun 29, 2008 18:04:49 GMT -5
Thanks Allen. So it would appear that Cos's wounded, according to the above statement, were attended to by Mexican medical personel. This would explain why Pollard never found it necessary to discuss them in his correspondence with Gov. Smith. On the issue of where the Mexicans were temporarily billeted, it would seem you called it right, Herb. Glenn
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Post by Herb on Jun 29, 2008 22:35:24 GMT -5
Oh, but he did...at least from what I have read. The surrender of Cos was not unconditional. If fact, Cos's negotiating team won numerous concessions from Burleson. There was no "take it or leave it" on the table. Glenn You left out a key phrase in my quote changing the meaning, what I said was "no matter what Cos thought of the Texians". Surrenders contrary to popular thought are very rarely unconditional. "Unconditional Surrender" Grant included terms in all of his negotiations save Fort Henry and Donelson. In fact Pemberton at Vicksburg got substantial terms from Grant just by promising to surrender on July 4th. Cos knew his situation was untenable, but he would still seek as much as he could get in negotiations - it only makes sense. Burleson faced with his own problems would probably agree to just about anything to get the Mexians out of Bexar, now! Cos wasn't in any position to demand anything - just as Pemberton was - but he was able to negotiate concessions, - but let's also be honest these concessions Cos received were the "normal" terms granted an honorable enemy. One of the questions this discussion has raised for me and remains unanswered, is whether the wounded soldatos were POWs or were they covered by Cos's parole?
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Post by dimbo33 on Jun 29, 2008 23:16:26 GMT -5
Pena, Filisola and Sanchez Navarro all mention that Mariano Arroyo was a second surgeon in the Mexican army. He was left in Bexar with the wounded. He had two practitioners or nurses left with him. One of the Mexican surgeons, Jose Moro wrote in a letter that Arroyo was in Bexar from the time of Cos' surrender. Arroyo is also listed on the list of officers that were in Bexar in March of 1836. He is listed as a second surgeon of the brigade of Military Health. I think that putting all this together it is likely that he and at least the worst of the wounded remained in Bexar until Santa Anna returned.
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Post by elcolorado on Jun 30, 2008 8:22:57 GMT -5
Good question. My guess is that they were paroled. I've not read or heard of the Texians maintaining any type of POW facility.
The question I have is what did the Mexicans do and where did they go once they recovered from their wounds? Obviously, some of the injured, like Mendoza, were not in a condition to go anywhere. But of those who did heal well enough to move about - what of them? With very limited resources, what did they live on. How did they survive? Did they remain in Bexar? Did they move on to other locations in Texas? Did they try to return to Mexico? How many were in Bexar when Santa Anna arrived? Did they rejoin the army?
Glenn
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