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Post by edward on Nov 30, 2013 22:13:38 GMT -5
This may only be of limited interesat to most forum members, but during the last High Holy Days, after all the hoopla died down, I had occasion to make some measurements of some features which had been traditionally involved in some confusion and controversy. Here are my findings, all of which were derived from actual measurements taken with a 100 ft tape measure: West Wall length: 525 feet (from SW corner of the reconstructed Charli carpenter shop, north to the vertical marker post, just off the NE corner of the Gibbs Building. (Note: This length, has historically been notoriously hard to get exact, since there was nothing left standing when Giraud did his survey, except low mounds of weed-choked dirt and rubble. So, in reality, the ACTUAL real length of the wall could be anything from 520 feet, to 530 feet, but 525 was actually measured to the standing north wall marker.) South Wall: 191 ft 2 inches (measured from the SE corner of the above-ground "planter" on the site of the Low Barrack, west to the SW corner of the reconstructed Charli carpenter shop. Long Barrack: 191 feet 6 inches (Measured from the NW edge of the Granary portion of the LB, south to the SW edge, or corner, of the LB, at the Convento portion. These numbers have historically wandered all over the place, apparently depending on who did the measurements, and how they were taken. I was accompanied by Rick Range, who used his measuring wheel as a backup, but it soon became clear that the wheel was grossly inaccurate, compared to the tape. Anyway, these numbers are presented here for those of you who may be interested. Mark Opening old thread. The screen shot below is courtesy of the City of San Antonio. They have setup a GIS web site where you can get measurements from the aerial views. You pick measure and select the type. I used the one that measures a straight line. Click the first location and double click the second location and the dimension will be displayed. You can also add labels and measure areas etc. You can turn off and on different layers. I have found it to have an accuracy of +/- 1 ft or so. The link is: gis.sanantonio.gov/ITSD/ImageViewer/index.htmlAttachment Deleted |
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Post by edward on Dec 4, 2013 2:22:14 GMT -5
This is what I have come up with for the Alamo Fort footprint. 1. City survey Book 1, page 114-115 F. Giraud Dec 1849- This survey meets and bounds are not transcribed correctly in the ‘Map’ section of this forum. With that said, the survey does not close. It is off almost 23’ N-S and about 7’ E-W. I kept the farthest South location for the North Wall. This locates the NW corner 236’ from the north side of Trevino’s House. 2. Bexar Archives deed 238:379 – 1905, Catholic Church to Clara Briscoe. This covers the Chapel's North wall to Houston Street (Convento). Giving a distance of 191.6’. 3. Bexar Archives deed 31:265 – 1883, Catholic Church to the State of Texas. This covers the Alamo Chapel. 4. Bexar Archives deed W1, 237 -1873, Catholic Church to City of San Antonio. This covers the South Wall building. 115.3’ long by 17.3' wide with an offset of 1.4’ x 31.3’ on its NW corner. 5. Bexar Archives deed H1:503 1850, Concepcion Charli and Jesus Cantu. This covers from the Entrance of the south Wall to West to the acequia. Also locates the South boundary of Trevino’s property. 6. City survey Book 1, page 117 - 1850, in conjunction with 5 above. 7. Bexar Archives LG# 34 – 1808, Francisco Amangual. Building South of Losoya (outside the Plaza).  |
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Post by Rich Curilla on Dec 4, 2013 20:12:01 GMT -5
The screen shot below is courtesy of the City of San Antonio. They have setup a GIS web site where you can get measurements from the aerial views. You pick measure and select the type. I used the one that measures a straight line. Click the first location and double click the second location and the dimension will be displayed. You can also add labels and measure areas etc. You can turn off and on different layers. I have found it to have an accuracy of +/- 1 ft or so. The link is: gis.sanantonio.gov/ITSD/ImageViewer/index.htmlView AttachmentI have been using Google Earth 3D in much this same way, and it seems to be simpler and more versatile. Perhaps it is only because it has grown very familiar to me and this is not. |
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Post by edward on Dec 16, 2013 15:14:33 GMT -5
Rich, just curious, using your virtual model, what do you get at 2578' East and 442' North from San Fernando Cathedral (center of dome).
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 6, 2014 0:51:41 GMT -5
Rich, just curious, using your virtual model, what do you get at 2578' East and 442' North from San Fernando Cathedral (center of dome). Sorry, Edward. I was away for Christmas and am now stepping back into the saddle. Just saw this. Your measurements take me almost precisely to the confessional window on the facade of the Alamo church. Why? |
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Post by edward on Jan 6, 2014 23:02:38 GMT -5
Rich, I just wanted to see how close the SA-GIS Map system I am using matched with what you are using. From your response they are very close.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 7, 2014 1:05:52 GMT -5
Rich, I just wanted to see how close the SA-GIS Map system I am using matched with what you are using. From your response they are very close. Same earth. lol. I thought that's what you were up to -- or checking to see how good I was. (I could have told you that.  ) |
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Post by edward on Jan 8, 2014 0:44:55 GMT -5
Rich, I just wanted to see how close the SA-GIS Map system I am using matched with what you are using. From your response they are very close. Same earth. lol. I thought that's what you were up to -- or checking to see how good I was. (I could have told you that. ) I thought you were a little off but I guess your not, neither is your map. LOL. NCB block map for Alamo Area. 
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 8, 2014 13:01:37 GMT -5
I thought you were a little off but I guess your not, neither is your map. LOL. Well, something nobody has ever accused me of is being "on." Ha! Hey, what is the year of the NCB map? It's interesting that the current Bonham Street (earlier Nacogdoches Street) was called Bonham Street then. |
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Post by edward on Jan 9, 2014 0:16:38 GMT -5
I thought you were a little off but I guess your not, neither is your map. LOL. Well, something nobody has ever accused me of is being "on." Ha! Hey, what is the year of the NCB map? It's interesting that the current Bonham Street (earlier Nacogdoches Street) was called Bonham Street then. The city map book said 1905, but the page itself is not dated. |
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 9, 2014 12:26:37 GMT -5
Upon checking further, I find it as Nacogdoches Street on the earlier 1885 Sanborn Map, while the street south from Crockett (now displaced by Rivercenter Mall) was called Bonham. So it must have just been a slip to call it Bonham behind the Alamo in 1905.
Interestingly (and amusingly) the 1885 Sanborn Map labels the alley running along the Alamo acequia past St. Joseph's church "Damfino." The cartographers must have been in a quandry. "What the heck is the name of that street?" asks one. "Damned if I know," is the only answer he gets. "Right. Damfino. That's what it'll be."
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Post by edward on Jan 9, 2014 14:22:26 GMT -5
Upon checking further, I find it as Nacogdoches Street on the earlier 1885 Sanborn Map, while the street south from Crockett (now displaced by Rivercenter Mall) was called Bonham. So it must have just been a slip to call it Bonham behind the Alamo in 1905. Interestingly (and amusingly) the 1885 Sanborn Map labels the alley running along the Alamo acequia past St. Joseph's church "Damfino." The cartographers must have been in a quandry. "What the heck is the name of that street?" asks one. "Damned if I know," is the only answer he gets. "Right. Damfino. That's what it'll be." "Right. Damfino. That's what it'll be." LOL. The Nacogdoches street name (behind Alamo church) was changed to Bonham right after 1900.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 9, 2014 17:05:56 GMT -5
Upon checking further, I find it as Nacogdoches Street on the earlier 1885 Sanborn Map, while the street south from Crockett (now displaced by Rivercenter Mall) was called Bonham. So it must have just been a slip to call it Bonham behind the Alamo in 1905. Interestingly (and amusingly) the 1885 Sanborn Map labels the alley running along the Alamo acequia past St. Joseph's church "Damfino." The cartographers must have been in a quandry. "What the heck is the name of that street?" asks one. "Damned if I know," is the only answer he gets. "Right. Damfino. That's what it'll be." "Right. Damfino. That's what it'll be." LOL. The Nacogdoches street name (behind Alamo church) was changed to Bonham right after 1900.
Yes, but it was called Nacogdoches Street in the 1950's and 1960's when I first frequented the place. The plot thickens. Frankly, "Damfino" is easier to understand. lol. |
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Post by edward on Jan 9, 2014 18:49:32 GMT -5
Yes, but it was called Nacogdoches Street in the 1950's and 1960's when I first frequented the place. The plot thickens. Frankly, "Damfino" is easier to understand. lol. Rich, you are right. I think the Book date of 1905 is the earliest range because there are other NCB maps that were done in the 1950's, although they are not dated either. So the name change was sometime after 1960 per your first hand account and that would make the NCB map date some time after the name change. Damfino! |
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 10, 2014 2:27:17 GMT -5
Yes, but it was called Nacogdoches Street in the 1950's and 1960's when I first frequented the place. The plot thickens. Frankly, "Damfino" is easier to understand. lol. Rich, you are right. I think the Book date of 1905 is the earliest range because there are other NCB maps that were done in the 1950's, although they are not dated either. So the name change was sometime after 1960 per your first hand account and that would make the NCB map date some time after the name change. Damfino! Well, but the plat itself definitely represents turn-of-the-century San Antonio -- trolley tracks and all. |
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