Covento Courtyard Well

[marklemon]

Question for Bruce:
Have there been any attempts to locate the original well shaft near the center of the Convento Courtyard-either by digs, or by electronic means (what is that called...ultrasonic siesmographs ? ) It may have been located (or may not have) during the 1912 demolition and wall footing excavations in the courtyard areas, but I never heard of it.
If not, why has this not been done? This is a feature that can be fairly easily located, as it would have been placed, if not in the exact center, at least NEAR the center, of the courtyard. The dig would not be very intrusive to the tourists, as the area, if I recall, is mostly covered by ivy. Think of the potential goldmine of artifacts that could be recovered....
If you say DRT apathy or intransigence, I'm gonna shoot myself...
Mark

[elcolorado]

Bruce/Mark

I seem to recall hearing that a cannon tube was recovered from a well on the Alamo grounds a long time ago. Did I hear that right?

I can well imagine the artifacts that may have been tossed down the well. It's almost like a time-capsule when you think about it.

Glenn

[bmoses]

Mark, the location of the current well is on the same spot as the original Convento Courtyard well. It was initially identified in early January, 1937, and the discovery was reported in the San Antonio Express:

The general location was known, as proved by excavation, and the actual location was found but two feet from where the original digging began. The well is under the large tree in the patio, north of the chapel, directly in front of the grilled iron entrance. Three stone sides of the well are in good condition, but the west side appears to have been caved in. However, (R.O.) Crist was down about three feet Tuesday night and had not found the stones which form this side. There, too, were found bits of very rusty metal, but it was impossible to identify them or to guess their use with the exception of two or three articles which appear to have been very large nails.

Reconstruction of the well occurred immediately after its identification. The only archaeological excavations to occur in this area (of the Convento Courtyard) were John W. Greer's units placed just east of the well in 1966. There, archaeologists discovered an adobe room constructed about 45 degrees off the orientation of the other buildings and this structure was thought to date to the early Spanish period (more on this to come).

There have been a few passing discussions of the prospect of excavating the well, but the stability of the walls is the real issue. We know it has been cleaned out down to at least four feet and so the undisturbed deposits are going to be encountered somewhere below that. If the DRT would be willing to dismantle at least a portion of the well in order to properly brace the walls (would have to meet OSHA standards), such an excavation could be carried out. Based on the above newspaper account the western wall would be the ideal portion to remove, but then you would have the huge Live Oak to contend with. It was planted in 1912 and I just don't see it going anywhere any time soon.

[Jake]

So since they found it in the 30's but won't do anything about it now, does that mean you have to shoot yourself in some non-vital area, Mark?

[marklemon]

This is just another example of foot-dragging and bizarre apathy by the same folks who have taken on the responsibility of safeguarding the Alamo...but maybe not so surprising in that they never claimed to be an archaeological research group. I just wish they'd stop selling Davy Crockett salt and pepper shakers long enough to seriously consider what can be done, and gained, by some well thought out, and focused digs in specific places. This is not something that should have to take generations to do.
And, no Jake, I decided not to shoot myself..I need to stick around awhile longer to place some burrs under your saddle!

[Jake]

Wow, Crockett salt and pepper shakers -- I missed those last time!

[trh]

Bruce

Greer, Mardith Schuetz, et al. thought that the well was a latter-day reconstruction -- best I can recall as a crew member (the "Tommy Hester" you've seen in the notes). A trench extended from the well out to the sidewalk, and led to the discovery of the adobe brick
room. I've got slides you can scan, though the better ones may have been copied when I
was CAR Director. Tom

[Don Allen]

Much like the well at Jamestown, this well almost certainly contains a treasure trove of discarded or lost items. You don't have a commonly used hole in the ground without things being dropped down it from time to time.

Then, when the well loses it's usefullness, it becomes an ideal trash pit. Much like a dig at "The Wall" conecting the Long Baracks to the church, a thorough excavation of this well, would not overly interupt the flow of visitors to the Alamo in general. The artifacts excavated from this well would probably be mind blowing.

[Allen Wiener]

I recently saw the new displays at Jamestown and there is a cutaway view of the abandoned well that illustrates this beautifully. There's at least one more in Williamsburg somewhere, but I forgot where; I'm heading down that way a week from Saturday so I'll check out any new stuff going on there. There are still digs going on around Jamestown and Williamsburg all the time. At the Alamo last year there was a small dig along the inside of the connecting wall near the Long Barrack. If that convento well has been there all this time there must be loads of interesting artifacts in there, even if it was never an abandoned well converted into a trash dump.

AW

[ranger2518]

Jun 12, 2008 16:25:13 GMT -5 Allen Wiener said:

At the Alamo last year there was a small dig along the inside of the connecting wall near the Long Barrack.

A minor correction...that dig was conducted in the summer of 2006, not 2007.

[Allen Wiener]

Jun 12, 2008 22:30:35 GMT -5 ranger2518 said:

Jun 12, 2008 16:25:13 GMT -5 Allen Wiener said:

At the Alamo last year there was a small dig along the inside of the connecting wall near the Long Barrack.

A minor correction...that dig was conducted in the summer of 2006, not 2007.

Ya see??? I told you my memory's shot. The years -- they are just a blur now.

Ahhh - it is now coming back to me, covered with cobwebs, and you are right. I was down there in December 2006 and March 2007 and must have seen it on one of those visits.

AW

[sloanrodgers]

Jun 12, 2008 14:15:13 GMT -5 Don Allen said:

Much like the well at Jamestown, this well almost certainly contains a treasure trove of discarded or lost items. You don't have a commonly used hole in the ground without things being dropped down it from time to time.

It would be a fantastic discovery for sure. Maybe the bones of that poor fellow
that was dispatched in the well (from the 2004 movie) would turn up, although
I'm not sure Hancock buried his extras after he was done with them. ;D

Serously, I hope the well is excavated someday. No telling what they would find
down there. Later

[texast]

I have been thinking on this for a while and I don't remember ever seeing anything that referred to this particular question that has been brought up at least in my own mind. This may be a crazy thought or consideration but hey it is something that has perplexed me since reading this topic. I know that there have been some vague yet weak attempts to excavate this in the past as mentioned above and I know that there will probably not be any other attempts for the near future in regards to excavating further the well.

The question I have been struggling with recently is does anyone know how deep the well really was at the time of the battle?

I have tried to do some research but have basically drawn a blank as given the elevation of the grounds in comparison to the rivers and creeks and built agricultural water ditches surrounding the Alamo I have found various estimates of the water tables for artisian wells such as those in the area ranging from a 30 foot depth to what is current today at up to 1800 feet depth.

With this in mind and knowing that in any time between the first mission occupation by the indians and the earlier priests how deep would they have been capable of digging a well safely up until 1836? Then the question comes that if the defenders had to also dig a well in fear of water being cut off which it wasn't successfully how deep would the defenders have had to dig for water during the preparation for the siege?

Would there have been sufficient water or space at the level in which the had to dig for water to be easily plugged by numerous items then and over the years or was the well plugged on purpose at some later time or just filled with land fill as the hole had dried up within a short time before The area was actually occupied by any land owner or the city itself of the time?

I ask these as I think it would make a difference also and may have been several reasons that a true excavation has not occurred even when they had the chance when they figured it out and did a minor excavation.

Any thoughts? and yes it would be great to be able after all this time to still find something of historical value there but also as it was a well many things would be truly rusted by this time primarily from the moisture such items may have endured over time.

[bobdurham]

I was in Philadelphia a few years ago and visited Ben Franklin's "house." They had excavated a few of the outhouses there and found a lot of artifacts that people had dropped in, either accidentally or on purpose. Does anyone know if any effort was ever made to excavate site of the Alamo latrines? Or is the gift shop built over that area?

Bob

[Herb]

Nov 19, 2008 7:46:59 GMT -5 bobdurham said:

I was in Philadelphia a few years ago and visited Ben Franklin's "house." They had excavated a few of the outhouses there and found a lot of artifacts that people had dropped in, either accidentally or on purpose. Does anyone know if any effort was ever made to excavate site of the Alamo latrines? Or is the gift shop built over that area?

Bob

Bob, Mark Lemon told me that the current courtyard walls pretty much followed the original footings, so I would assume that where the remains of the latrines are underneath the sidewalks in today's cavalry courtyard.