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Post by jagjetta on May 15, 2007 15:49:18 GMT -5
Greetings, I hope to tap the collective knowledge of the group. In my ongoing work on the Quincy Riflemen (Co. A, 1st Illinois Infantry), I have been back and forth on determining exactly what weapon they carried into Mexico.
When they left Quincy, Illinois, they had "old long rifles" with artillery short swords (the company quartermaster retrieved 64 swords from St. Louis and these were distributed by drawing lots). However, they turned in their rifles at St. Louis before continuing on their journey down the Mississippi and subsequently to Mexico.
Company muster rolls indicate that they were issued flints and sets of picks and brushes; the company received a number of bullet molds; and the soldiers wore cartridge boxes with BLACK belt and brass plate. When they departed Saltillo in 1847, Quincy Riflemen turned in rifles or were charged for lost "rifles". All of these leads me to believe that they indeed still function as a rifle company but I have not been able to conclusively say that they carried Model 1817 "Common" rifles or something else. The puzzler in regard to the 1817 rifles is that the "normal" accouterments issued to a rifleman would have consisted of a bullet "pouch" and flask (see R. T. Huntington, Accoutrements of the United States Infantry, Riflemen, and Dragoons 1834-1839). Any suggestions how to attack this question?
A second "rifle" question involves the 3rd Indiana. In all of my Buena Vista research, I have only once uncovered a reference to the two rifle companies of the 3rd Indiana as being armed with "revolving rifles". I have not been able to corroborate this reference, however. One would think that something this unusual would have stood out in newspaper, diary or even memoir references. I have been through Willis A. Gorman's papers (commanded the ad hoc rifle brigade that ascended the mountains on the U.S. left flank at the Battle of Buena Vista) and found nothing. Most of his Mex War material, however, relates to his second command and not his time with the 3rd Indiana).
Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated and carefully considered. John Adams-Graf Iola, Wisconsin
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 15, 2007 21:56:21 GMT -5
Maybe Scott (mustanggray) or someone on his ROT site can help with this one. Jim
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Post by Herb on May 16, 2007 9:53:11 GMT -5
I mentioned on the other website, that shortly after the 2d Dragoons were organized in 1836, that the second in comand, then LTC William Harney, bought out of his own pocket 100 Colt Revolving Carbines (50 ea in 1838 and 1839) also purchased were a number of Paterson revolvers (I don't have exact figures). In 1842 in a Congressionally directed reorganization, while stationed at Fort Jessup, LA, the regiment was ordered to turn in its revolving carbines. Presumably these went into one of the armories in LA. No known records exsist that show any action on the pistols.
While certainly not tied together, it would not seem beyond belief either, that a unit moving through LA might have drawn these Paterson Carbines from the armory on their way to Mexico.
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Post by TRK on May 16, 2007 10:25:23 GMT -5
Herb, what you wrote is *very* interesting; there may well be a Louisiana--specifically, the Baton Rouge Arsenal--connection concerning the 3rd Indiana's revolving-cylinder rifles. Oran Perry's book, Indiana in the Mexican War (Indianapolis: 1908), is a massive compendium of official reports, government and military correspondence, personal accounts, newspaper notices, etc. The book makes it clear that the Indiana Volunteers were stopping at the Baton Rouge Arsenal to receive their arms, on their way from Indiana to New Orleans, before shipping to Mexico. Gen. John E. Wool wrote to James Whitcomb, governor of Indiana, on June 13, 1846, providing information about supplies for the Indiana volunteer regiments: "Arms and accoutrements will be supplied from the Baton Rouge Arsenal as volunteers are en route for Texas." (p. 49) A member of the 1st Indiana noted that on July 10, 1846, his regiment "stopped at Baton Rouge and received our arms." (p. 79)
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Post by Herb on May 16, 2007 10:37:01 GMT -5
I know this information, in more depth, was included in a memoir written about the regiment's, 2d Dragoons, early history - unfortunately all I can find right now is extracts without citations.
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Post by TRK on May 17, 2007 6:55:18 GMT -5
More on the Indiana Volunteers drawing arms (including rifles) from the Baton Rouge Arsenal: an excerpt of orders issued by the Ordnance Office, Washington, D.C., June 4, 1846, and copied to the governor of Indiana, from Perry, Indiana in the Mexican War, p. 24:
"To the officer commanding Baton Rouge arsenal (it being a depot lying in the route of these [i.e., Indiana] volunteers) to supply the regiment [sic] with muskets and accoutrements for the whole, or with rifles and accoutrements for the two flank companies of each regiment, and muskets and accoutrements for the rest, with forty cartridges and two flints to each gun issued."
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Post by jagjetta on May 17, 2007 8:09:53 GMT -5
Picking up the arms at Baton Rouge opens a whole new line of thinking which I had not considered. This is good! I have only rececently begun to considered arsenal inventories for an unrelated Civil War project but wonder if anyone has taken a hard look at pre-1846 inventories. How often were these inventories recorded? Since TRK has pinpointed that the Indianans received rifles and accouterments for the flank companies, I suspect that pinpointing what was issued (or even turned in by the Indianans in 1847) won't elude us for long! Good find TRK!
Whereas I was familiar with Harney's purchases of revolving carbines while in Florida, I had no idea that 2nd Dragoons turned in weapons at Baton Rouge! This certainly opens up some interesting possibilities.
If anyone has suggestions on how to track down Arsenal inventories prior to 1846, I sure am open to suggestions!
John A-G Iola, Wisconsin
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Post by TRK on May 17, 2007 8:56:43 GMT -5
John, probably the first place to look would be the published annual reports of the adjutant general of the State of Louisiana for 1845-1847. Frederick P. Todd, in American Military Equippage, 1851-1872, vol. 2, p. 846, alludes to the fact that the annual reports of the Louisiana adjutant general in the 1850s included inventories of the arms at the Baton Rouge Arsenal (and notes that in 1861 the arsenal's inventories included "73 Colt rifles").
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Post by jagjetta on May 17, 2007 9:33:39 GMT -5
Tom, That is a really good idea. Do you suppose this information would be repeated in any federal documentation as well? I am wondering if any particular record group at the National Archives might include reports from the various arsenals.
John
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Post by TRK on May 17, 2007 10:46:04 GMT -5
If there are records on the Baton Rouge Arsenal circa mid-1840s in the National Archives, they are likely in Record Group 94 (Adjutant General's Records), possibly in misc. correspondence therein. I doubt such records would be on microfilm; if there were such records at NA, you'd probably have to go there in person.
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Post by jagjetta on May 17, 2007 14:09:27 GMT -5
Tom: Been doing some on line searching. Ever have experience searching Record Group 156? Here is a description I found that might lead to some answers regarding the stocks at Baton Rouge:
156.3.1 Records relating to ordnance property Textual Records: Contracts, 1812-68, 1883-1910. Statements of purchases, 1861-67.Miscellaneous records relating to the arming and equipping of the militia, 1808-53. Ledgers and journals of ordnance and ordnance stores issued to the militia, 1811-1914, with gaps. Quarterly summary statements of ordnance and ordnance stores on hand at ordnance installations, 1813-41, with gaps; at forts and batteries, 1838-53, 1862-64 Microfilm Publications: M1281.
John
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Post by TRK on May 17, 2007 14:34:34 GMT -5
Record Group 156 is Office of the Chief of Ordnance. I've never been in that group (although I've found some Mexican War ordnance reports and correspondence in RG 94).
The description you provided sounds like that record group might be a crapshoot as for info on stores in armories in the 1846-47 period. (i.e., "Quarterly summary statements of ordnance and ordnance stores on hand at ordnance installations, 1813-41, with gaps; at forts and batteries, 1838-53, 1862-64")
Still think the annual report of the adjutant of the State of Louisiana would be the best starting place, but I'm not having luck locating where such reports exist. Don't seem to be any in the Louisiana state library or the National Archives.
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Post by jagjetta on May 18, 2007 8:21:16 GMT -5
I agree, the annual report of the LA adjutant sounds like the way to go. I am not having any luck searching online for the existance of one. Perhaps I will send a letter to the current LA AG and inquire.
I did find a couple of various diary entries from 2nd Indiana soldiers who corroborate that they picked up arms at Baton Rouge. In fact, one soldier, Hiram Catlin, commented that they stopped at Baton Rouge for only two hours, picked up their arms, reboarded and continued on to New Orleans. Alas, he made no comment about WHAT arms they acquired!
John
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Post by jagjetta on May 18, 2007 11:17:17 GMT -5
I mentioned on the other website, that shortly after the 2d Dragoons were organized in 1836, that the second in comand, then LTC William Harney, bought out of his own pocket 100 Colt Revolving Carbines (50 ea in 1838 and 1839) also purchased were a number of Paterson revolvers (I don't have exact figures). In 1842 in a Congressionally directed reorganization, while stationed at Fort Jessup, LA, the regiment was ordered to turn in its revolving carbines. Presumably these went into one of the armories in LA. No known records exsist that show any action on the pistols. Wolfpack: You sure have me scratching the surface thinking I might find some nuggets! I went through Rodenbough's history of the 2nd Dragoons last night and reaquainted myself with the few references to the Colt carbines they acquired but found no reference to Harney buying them with his own money. In checking Houze's book COLT RIFLES AND MUSKETS, From 1847 to 1870, I noticed references to carbines being sent for testing. Again, no real concise reference to Harney picking up the (enormous!) tab for these. If I recall correctly, the carbines were delivered at a price of about $130 per gun! If you can point me to any specific source, I would sure appreciate it. John A-G
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Post by Herb on May 18, 2007 12:28:52 GMT -5
It does seem incredible, that Harney would pick up the whole tab! I was researching the Colts back in late 98, and the info's packed away in box somewhere, but I'll look for it. What we were attempting to find was what happened to the Paterson revolvers that were purchased at the same time and if there was any evidence that the regiment might have had some Patersons during the Mexican War.
The info came out of a couple of memiors, in todays 2d Cavalry's, the old 2d Dragoons, museum. Rodenbough, sounds like it might have been one of them.
The original purchase iirc, went to Florida for use against the Seminoles, the regiment as originally constituted was raised/stationed in many states before being consolidated first in Arkansas Territory, then at Fort Jessup, LA.
I have a copy of the "History, Customs, and Traditions of the 2d Cavalry Regiment" that refers to the two purchases of 50 each Colt Carbines and that Harney paid for them, but no citations/documentation. It also mentions that the carbines were issued to selected men - not to specific companies.
I distinctly remember in my research that Harney was behind the purchases, but I cannot recall who/how they were paid for.
I was planning on unpacking those boxes and properly filing them next week, anyway. I guess now I have further motivation.
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