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Post by sloanrodgers on Nov 9, 2007 21:33:12 GMT -5
As I've become more interested and educated on the Texas Rangers outside of Jack Hays' company, I've noticed that some people display a good deal of hatred or ignorance for the rangers of other eras. There were some bad men in the Texas Rangers at one one time or another, but with a few exceptions, most were good, honest, hard-working men of their time. Texas owes a part of her hard-fought independance and later survival to the rangers. I believe it's a debt we can never repay to the past or present incarnation. In recent years a concerted effort has been made to malign not just the men accused of crimes or mistakes, but the whole ranger organization. This is a gross and inaccurate generalization for the misdeeds of a few bad apples. There are a lot of educated and knowledgeable researchers, but there are some from the backside of the cinco peso ranger badge. Recently, a short documentary called Border Bandits was screened in Austin, Texas. The screenwriter, director and producer, Kirby Warnock claims in this film that in 1915, his father witnessed future Texas Adjutant General William W. Sterling and other rangers drive down a Hidalgo County dirt road behind two unarmed Hispanic men and shoot them in the back. The movie obviously takes place during the brutal Mexican Revolution and tragic border warfare that spread into Texas. I havn't seen the whole documentary yet, but from what I have seen and read it plays real loose with the facts. I saw a Sept 14th article where Maggie Rivas-Rodriguez of the Ken Burns controversy is a supporter of the film. The biggest problem with this documentary is there's apparently no evidence that Sterling was present at the scene of the crime and proof that he wasn't even a ranger in 1915. Other rangers probably killed the innocent Tejanos, but not Bill Sterling. Regardless, Warnock has taken his movie across Texas and shown it as evidence of ranger brutality when it has deep flaws in its data. Others have jumped on the ranger bashing bandwagon because of this film.
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Post by mustanggray on Nov 9, 2007 21:52:53 GMT -5
RangerRod,
I completely agree with you though there were quite a few rangers of questionable character in the war with Mexico at least(see my screen name!).
Several years ago our old ranger company was down at Palo Alto doing a living history event portraying Sam Walker's company at the beginning of the war. At one point during the weekend a hispanic lady with her children approached me and told her kids to ask who I was. When they did I replied I was a ranger in Sam Walker's company to which the mom exclaimed "SEE mijo... these are the guys who killed your grandparents!!!"... imagine my surprise! What was I to say? I continued with the comment "well, we've chased down everyone from Comanches to Mexican guerillas" and the interp went great from there on out eventually turning into a discussion on the hispanics living along the border and how they weren't accepted by Mexicans or Tejanos.
Anyway, yes, there certainly seems to be a serrious attempt to villanize the rangers of old but it's a safe bet that's due to the increased Mexican population here in the Lonestar State!
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Post by sloanrodgers on Nov 12, 2007 1:07:00 GMT -5
n RangerRod, I completely agree with you though there were quite a few rangers of questionable character in the war with Mexico at least(see my screen name!). Thank you Sir. I think the public/media should understand that thousands of men served in the numerous ranger-like companies and that dispicable people like the murderous John J. Glanton were bound to weasel their way into the organization, especially when the standards were non-existant or loosened for various reasons. The majority obviously didn't sink as low as Glanton, who became an Indian scalp hunter for the Mexican government before he was tracked down and killed. Clearly not every ranger company was an elite unit worthy of praise either. In my opinion rangers should be judged on an indvidual or company basis, like other large organizations. A historian should also insure that they've got all their facts straight before making wild accusations. You should have told them that there were also many Hispanic, Indian and even a few Black rangers back then, although they probably wouldn't have believed a word. Other races had a ranger license to kill, not just Anglos. I didn't think of that and you may be right. Of course the history and soil of Old Mexico was soaked in blood long before the rangers crossed the Rio Grande River. Sadly it continues to this day in different forms.
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Post by TRK on Nov 12, 2007 8:44:14 GMT -5
...there were also many Hispanic, Indian and even a few Black rangers back then Ever hear of Black Beaver, the Delaware Indian scout who commanded a Texas spy company during the Mexican War? His unit was composed of Delawares and was a three-months outfit, serving from June 1 to August 31, 1846. It included two officers, three non-coms, and thirty privates. Black Beaver was an interesting guy; I've picked up bits and pieces about him over the years.
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Post by Don Allen on Jun 12, 2008 0:03:18 GMT -5
Glad to see a Ranger thread on this forum. My great grandfather, John Allen was a ranger in the Rio Grande Valley in the 1910's. He became good friends with the McAllen family and that friendship lasted through to my father. He told of John McAllen being trapped in his ranch house, alone while several bandits ransacked the area around the house. Mr. McAllen finally had enough and managed to hit the leader of the group square in the head with a shotgun blast, from the second floor of the house. This blast removed a sizeable portion of the man's head and even the rangers were a bit taken aback at the site. My dad says the ranch house is still there and has multiple bullet holes in it.
My great grandfather told stories of stacking bandits up in piles, with wood, and pouring kerosene over them and burning them. He followed up on a gunfight outside of San Benito, TX between some bandits and my grandmother's father, who had his daughters on the floor of the house while he took shots out the window. This led to my grandfather and grandmother meeting as youngsters.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jun 12, 2008 4:04:25 GMT -5
Glad to see a Ranger thread on this forum. My great grandfather, John Allen was a ranger in the Rio Grande Valley in the 1910's. He became good friends with the McAllen family and that friendship lasted through to my father. He told of John McAllen being trapped in his ranch house, alone while several bandits ransacked the area around the house. Mr. McAllen finally had enough and managed to hit the leader of the group square in the head with a shotgun blast, from the second floor of the house. This blast removed a sizeable portion of the man's head and even the rangers were a bit taken aback at the site. My dad says the ranch house is still there and has multiple bullet holes in it. I don't know anything about your ranger ancestor, but I believe the McAllen attack that you are referring to was the September 24, 1915 battle at James B. McAllen's ranch north of Edinburg, TX. This rancher was one tough hombre, but director Kirby Warnock ( see first post ) has denigrated him to a pedophile with speculation and misinterpretation. Here is a link to his website. www.borderbanditsmovie.com/ Yes, there are a lot of stories of horrible atrocities on both sides of the border during the Mexican Revolution, but the rangers of this period weren't the only group with a mandate for brutality. So it goes with most wars.
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Post by Don Allen on Jun 12, 2008 7:52:48 GMT -5
A few points:
- I don't consider burning the bodies of multiple bandits an attrocity. They could've left them in the brush for the coyotes to eat. They most likely didn't have the time to dig multiple graves, etc.
- These bandits were genuine thugs who were crossing the river and stealing property. We Texans had the right then, as we do now, to use deadly force to protect our property from thieves. If a person enters another's property without permission and take their property, I honestly don't care what actions are taken to dispose of that person and what is done with that person's body. The bandits were not gentlemen who were acting as wise Robin Hoods. I had two sets of grandparents, and their parents, on the scene at the time and things were desperate. My great grandfather Wills was forced to fight out of the windows of his home, like a bad 1950's western with young girls crying on the floor of the house. My great grandfather Allen on the other hand, was 6' 6" and had 7 boys (who were all big men), so the bandits pretty much let them be.
- There are multiple, documented cases of bandits commiting outright rape and murder. One instance that comes to mind is the shopkeeper and his wife in the vicinity of modern-day Lyford, TX. This man was made to watch as his wife was raped, then he was spit on and urinated on, and finally executed. Then his wife met the same fate.
- John McAllen's son, Argyle, was a close friend to my grandfather, Henry Allen, from childhood through to his death in 1974, close enough that he knew the family nickname for Argyle (which Argyle hated). I haven't maintained contact with the McAllen's but my father knew Jim (the current owner and Argyle's son) and speaks of him highly. Jim most likely has too much class to respond to this vitriolic garbage being spewed by Mr. Warnock, but allow me to say that it is shameful and irresponsible at best.
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Post by Herb on Jun 12, 2008 12:29:33 GMT -5
A few points: - These bandits were genuine thugs who were crossing the river and stealing property. We Texans had the right then, as we do now, to use deadly force to protect our property from thieves. If a person enters another's property without permission and take their property, I honestly don't care what actions are taken to dispose of that person and what is done with that person's body. The bandits were not gentlemen who were acting as wise Robin Hoods. I had two sets of grandparents, and their parents, on the scene at the time and things were desperate. My great grandfather Wills was forced to fight out of the windows of his home, like a bad 1950's western with young girls crying on the floor of the house. My great grandfather Allen on the other hand, was 6' 6" and had 7 boys (who were all big men), so the bandits pretty much let them be. - There are multiple, documented cases of bandits commiting outright rape and murder. One instance that comes to mind is the shopkeeper and his wife in the vicinity of modern-day Lyford, TX. This man was made to watch as his wife was raped, then he was spit on and urinated on, and finally executed. Then his wife met the same fate. This is what is wrong with our PC culture, today, not that we illuminate the wrongs done by white Americans in the past, but we do so by taking them out of the context of the times. The classic case in my part of Texas is Lamar's forced removal of the Cherokee. Today it is never mentioned that the Cherokee War began with the massacre of nine white families, and the captured correspondence between the Cherokees and Mexico. Nor is it mentioned that the Texian Army granted Chief Bowles a two day truce, because Bowles claimed he was trying to convince his people to comply, instead he used the time to gather his forces, and to send messengers to the Shawnee and Delaware trying to get them to join i=him in an all out war. Finally, it is never mentioned that the Cherokee significantly outnumbered the Texian Army and were well equipped with period weapons. No all that is mentioned today, is that greedy Texians conducted an unprovoked attack, to steal the Cherokee land. Good history should include the warts, but it must be honest and include the warts from both sides.
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Post by Don Allen on Jun 12, 2008 12:53:26 GMT -5
A few points: - These bandits were genuine thugs who were crossing the river and stealing property. We Texans had the right then, as we do now, to use deadly force to protect our property from thieves. If a person enters another's property without permission and take their property, I honestly don't care what actions are taken to dispose of that person and what is done with that person's body. The bandits were not gentlemen who were acting as wise Robin Hoods. I had two sets of grandparents, and their parents, on the scene at the time and things were desperate. My great grandfather Wills was forced to fight out of the windows of his home, like a bad 1950's western with young girls crying on the floor of the house. My great grandfather Allen on the other hand, was 6' 6" and had 7 boys (who were all big men), so the bandits pretty much let them be. - There are multiple, documented cases of bandits commiting outright rape and murder. One instance that comes to mind is the shopkeeper and his wife in the vicinity of modern-day Lyford, TX. This man was made to watch as his wife was raped, then he was spit on and urinated on, and finally executed. Then his wife met the same fate. This is what is wrong with our PC culture, today, not that we illuminate the wrongs done by white Americans in the past, but we do so by taking them out of the context of the times. Good history should include the warts, but it must be honest and include the warts from both sides. Well said...that is what you expect from an honest interpreter of history. That, and not making wild accusations about people being pedophiles and the like. In my book, this excludes Mr. Warnock from being taken seriously.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jun 12, 2008 23:24:31 GMT -5
A few points: - I don't consider burning the bodies of multiple bandits an attrocity. They could've left them in the brush for the coyotes to eat. They most likely didn't have the time to dig multiple graves, etc. I sincerely apologize. I didn't mean to imply that your ranger ancestor committed an atrocity by burning bandit bodies. Atrocity was the wrong word because I don't know the circumstance or the intentions of the ranger commander. Mass burning of remains has been necessary throughout past conflicts to deter the spread of disease or other considerations as with the Alamo pyres. Sometimes the remains on the frontier were simply returned to the earth with the help of varmints and vultures. I do believe that there were laws in the early 20th Century protecting the bandit bodies against such unauthorized incineration depending on whether the bandits were Mexican citizens/ soldiers or U. S. citizens. After all we did sign the Geneva Convention by this time and had a system of federal laws and state statutes. I have a different perspective on modern warfare and human conflict. Being a first generation Texan, I don't have any Texas ancestors. I've met several rangers and study them extensively. In my little war, I did see Navy Seals and soldiers shot to pieces by the enemy. Thankfully there is a system that deters the mistreatment of Americans after they can no longer fight back. All I'm saying is the Mexican Revolution was a bloody conflict that spilled over into Texas. Terrible things were done on both sides. You should read about the border incidents of Captains Ransom and Fox. I totally agree. The McAllen Family has been much maligned lately.
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Post by Don Allen on Jun 13, 2008 9:36:50 GMT -5
RangerRod, I hope I didn't come across too aggressively, that is certainly not my nature. You raise some good points.
My perspective is, of course, affected by my lineage. I did not personally know any of these great grandparents who were the adults with children at the time of the bandit wars, but I did know almost all of their children, and without exception, these were extremely honorable men and women who were staunchly opposed to violence. They would however, do what was necessary to defend their families and property.
Take the Wills clan for instance. I don't want to oversimplify things but anyone who knew R.J. Wills, and his wife & children (who were mainly girls, one of which was my grandmother) knew this family to be quiet and reserved...very gentle folks. One of my grandmother's sisters turned part of her land into a refuge of sorts, where she built homes and housed mainly hispanic families, free of charge, who were in need.
Yet, here was this man, firing a rifle out the back window of his home, killing more than one of these bandits while his daughters and wife were taking cover from the bullets coming through the walls. Put yourself in his shoes. He's out in the country and 7 to 10 men are taking his livelihood and he finds himself in a gunfight, which, if he looses, will possibly result in his wife and daughters getting raped and murdered.
I personally, only see one side to this. A group of thugs and thieves crosses the river, enters my great grandfather Will's property, and attempts to take his cattle and horses. These thugs fire rounds into a house full of mainly little girls. I'm only sorry he didn't kill more of them.
From what I was told as a youngster, the locals had begged and pleaded for help and did not receive much from the Feds or the state for quite some time. The rangers who arrived on the scene were not playing war games with uniformed soldiers, in neatly marching columns. These bandits were scum who would not hesitate to kill, and there is plenty of evidence to support this.
My Allen grandfather told me that, on more than one occasion, when his dad and fellow rangers caught the cattle thieves outright, they would gun down all but one of them and send the last man home to tell everyone who would listen what would happen to them if they tried the same things. This was a handful of men against a small army of bandits. I think they did what they had to do.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jun 15, 2008 1:20:36 GMT -5
RangerRod, I hope I didn't come across too aggressively, that is certainly not my nature. You raise some good points. No problem, I understand completely. I do think that every war has two or more sides and are sometimes very complicated. One side or the other may have the moral high ground, but both may be slow to recognize the values and humanity of their enemy. I'm more seperated from Texas history family- wise, but I think it's an asset. One of my ancestors was the only soldier left unwounded in the 1675 Battle of Bloody Brook in Massachusetts. This same ancestor was later captured in the 1704 Deerfield Massacre with his family. The French and their Indian allies took the English prisoners to Ft. Chambly, Quebec. He was eventually released, but most of his children decided to remain with the French. I have relatives on both sides of the Canadian border. I often wonder if my French/Indian kin killed my English relations in Massachusetts or vice versa. Regardless, I honor all my ancestors and try to understand their motivations. I also apply this reasoning to other conflicts, although my own bias sometimes gets in the way.
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Post by steves on Jun 16, 2008 12:45:41 GMT -5
One of my ancestors was the only soldier left unwounded in the 1675 Battle of Bloody Brook in Massachusetts. This same ancestor was later captured in the 1704 Deerfield Massacre with his family. The French and their Indian allies took the English prisoners to Ft. Chambly, Quebec. He was eventually released, but most of his children decided to remain with the French. I have relatives on both sides of the Canadian border. I often wonder if my French/Indian kin killed my English relations in Massachusetts or vice versa. Regardless, I honor all my ancestors and try to understand their motivations. I also apply this reasoning to other conflicts, although my own bias sometimes gets in the way. Topic close to my heart...I think I'm the only re-enactor in the UK who's got King Philip's War kit...Just because I wanted to! Steve
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Post by sloanrodgers on Jun 16, 2008 18:04:56 GMT -5
One of my ancestors was the only soldier left unwounded in the 1675 Battle of Bloody Brook in Massachusetts. This same ancestor was later captured in the 1704 Deerfield Massacre with his family. The French and their Indian allies took the English prisoners to Ft. Chambly, Quebec. He was eventually released, but most of his children decided to remain with the French. I have relatives on both sides of the Canadian border. I often wonder if my French/Indian kin killed my English relations in Massachusetts or vice versa. Regardless, I honor all my ancestors and try to understand their motivations. I also apply this reasoning to other conflicts, although my own bias sometimes gets in the way. Topic close to my heart...I think I'm the only re-enactor in the UK who's got King Philip's War kit...Just because I wanted to! Steve Cool Steve! It sounds like you may know the name of my lucky, but not so famous English ancestor or would you be stebbin the dark?
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Post by steves on Jun 17, 2008 4:11:47 GMT -5
Topic close to my heart...I think I'm the only re-enactor in the UK who's got King Philip's War kit...Just because I wanted to! Steve Cool Steve! It sounds like you may know the name of my lucky, but not so famous English ancestor or would you be stebbin the dark? Possibly also the only one of the 14 Pocumtuck men to escape?....You try mentioning that war in the UK...people think it's something to do with the Spanish Armarda........ Steve
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