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Post by marklemon on Apr 28, 2010 9:58:10 GMT -5
This is a fascinating legal issue, and I can clearly see points on both sides, the repugnant nature of the offenders notwithstanding. The closest thing I can claim to any MOH is my GGGrandfather, (on the Confederate side), and Peter Lemon, who is a very distant cousin. But when he says: "It gives you the power to entice somebody into marriage," he said. "It could give you the power to be able to join an organization, get special treatment with regards to getting tickets to a football game, getting license plates, getting preferential treatment in a job situation." Seems to me this can be said for a clever con artist who claims any other sort of status-enhancing achievement, as in Frank W. Abagnale (portrayed by Leonardo Di Caprio in "Catch Me If You Can") and this crime is covered by the fraud statutes in most states.
Anyway, a very interesting legal question.
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Post by Chuck T on Apr 28, 2010 20:27:55 GMT -5
As chance would have it of few of my friends on another site and I are in the process of unmasking another pretender as I post. One of the key factors of detection are the stupid mistakes they make about details. Wolfpack and probably others will know what I mean by this. The most simple one of course is over and out, but there are so many that point to the imposter or pretender.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 28, 2010 21:55:06 GMT -5
In 1989, while at Fort Bragg, I briefly became a squad leader. My first order of business was to complete the paperwork and put myself in for the Distinguished Service Medal and give it to our lieutenant. No, seriously, it was merely the Good Conduct Medal. The way I saw it back then, my good conduct was a matter of opinion and I thought I deserved it even with minor transgressions that nobody knew about. I proudly wear my GCM around town sometimes and storeowners and others treat me better than medaless folk. I even tell tall tales of my conduct although it's mostly of the bad variety with drinking, carousing with frauleins and military pranks. Please don't take my medal away. ;D
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Post by Hiram on Apr 28, 2010 23:20:10 GMT -5
Every veteran I've spoken to who has been decorated for valor has been humble, unassuming, and typically doesn't speak much about the action they saw and experienced.
I met two MOH recipients at the Alamo today prior to the Segs4Vets ceremony, Pat Brady and Barney Barnum. The only reason I knew they had received our nation's highest award for valor is because they were wearing their medals.
BTW, if there are any Forum members unfamiliar with the Segs4Vets organization, please visit their site. www.segs4vets.org/As for those who feel compelled to steal valor, its difficult to determine a singular cause for such behavior. In some cases, the person is simply a compulsive liar. I think a good cure for that would be to require that person to visit the home of a wounded veteran and see what real sacrifice is about, and then incarcerate them for a reasonable time so they can think about it for awhile.
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Post by Chuck T on Apr 29, 2010 2:48:41 GMT -5
Hiram: I have not seen General Brady since he was deputy commander of First Army, then at Fort George G. Meade. I trust he is doing well?
As far as punishment is concerned I believe that where my son works Colonian Williamsburg, they have the appropriate remedy, public humiliation in the stocks, but that's for another thread.
Please tell Monty one of you colegues that on easter Sunday when I visited I found him most knowledgible and informative, and thank him for me. Without saying so I touched upon the main thrusts of the Exudus book, based then only upon reviews. His answers were well thought out, and as such much appreciated.
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Post by Hiram on Apr 29, 2010 15:52:36 GMT -5
Hiram: I have not seen General Brady since he was deputy commander of First Army, then at Fort George G. Meade. I trust he is doing well? As far as punishment is concerned I believe that where my son works Colonian Williamsburg, they have the appropriate remedy, public humiliation in the stocks, but that's for another thread. Please tell Monty one of you colegues that on easter Sunday when I visited I found him most knowledgible and informative, and thank him for me. Without saying so I touched upon the main thrusts of the Exudus book, based then only upon reviews. His answers were well thought out, and as such much appreciated. General Brady is doing quite well and stands as an example of true valor.
Stocks located on a military post or base sounds like an appropriate punishment. I would support that.
Chieftan, Monty is a very knowledgeable individual and I will pass along your compliments.
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Post by Herb on Apr 29, 2010 15:53:23 GMT -5
As chance would have it of few of my friends on another site and I are in the process of unmasking another pretender as I post. One of the key factors of detection are the stupid mistakes they make about details. Wolfpack and probably others will know what I mean by this. The most simple one of course is over and out, but there are so many that point to the imposter or pretender. That's true, but I also knew an army Major who had built up a very clever fake record. He was only caught because his former Ranger Instructor (when the Major washed out of Ranger school) ended up in the same unit, and asked the major when he completed Ranger School. The resulting investigation turned up even more fraudlent awards, and fake airborne training. I don't know if they ever determined how he manged to get his official records doctored.
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Post by Chuck T on Apr 29, 2010 16:53:57 GMT -5
Wolfpack and all: The more I see of the human condition the less I am surprised about stories such as these. In this particular instance it was so he could remain competative. But what of the others who do it for no apparent reason? I suppose it's because they don't like themselves very much, and at the same time want others to like them more. I just don't know..
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Post by Chuck T on Apr 29, 2010 17:01:05 GMT -5
Hiram: Your signature is from "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" is it not? I must say that your taste in westerns must be as mine where there is John Ford and the rest are also rans. Greeley said something very similar but Carleton Young's (I believe that was his last name) is the one that is branded to memory
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Post by Hiram on Apr 29, 2010 20:52:09 GMT -5
Hiram: Your signature is from "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" is it not? I must say that your taste in westerns must be as mine where there is John Ford and the rest are also rans. Greeley said something very similar but Carleton Young's (I believe that was his last name) is the one that is branded to memory Chieftan, It is from "Liberty Valance," and the actor was indeed Carleton Young, as the newspaper editor, Maxwell Scott.
I think in terms of American film directors, everyone should start with John Ford, and then go from there. The Western film is one of the few original American art forms, and no one did it better than Ford.
I'm not exactly sure why this one John Ford film resonates within me more so than any other Ford movie.
Perhaps its the idea that civility and the rule of law does have its place on the frontier, but ultimately, we must be prepared to go step by step and toe to toe with those that have no comprehension of human decency and order.
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Post by Chuck T on Apr 29, 2010 20:55:19 GMT -5
Well said my friend
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Post by Hiram on Apr 29, 2010 23:05:24 GMT -5
Chieftan,
I tip my hat to you in the greatest respect. This one is for you.
"Tyree, tell me about Spanish Man's Grave." Sergeant Tyree spat left and looked squint-eyed under his hat brim at Ross Pennell. "Can't rightly tell much, sir. Never been there. Only hearsay. He drawed a picture of it once -- Captain MacAfee. Spanish soldiers ridin' an' marchin' up from Santa Fe coupla centuries ago, all shinin' in armor and golden helmets, with plumes and yellow silken flags. Musta been purty." Tyree shook his head. "But it didn't work out. The Apaches caught the whole kit and kaboodle of 'em in the tablelands and killed every mother's son. Got 'em like at the bottom of the well, they say. Ever since then it's been Apache holy ground. It did something to their bad god for all time. Only their good god lives in the Grave. Once the Apaches get in to Spanish Man's, they're safe home. Big and powerful medicine that protects them." - James Warner Bellah (author of Fort Apache, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, and Rio Grande)
Bellah also wrote Sergeant Rutledge, and to complete the "Alamo circle," wrote one episode of the short-lived series Temple Houston, produced by and starring Jeffrey Hunter.
This obviously has nothing to do with the point of this thread but what the heck...there it is.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 30, 2010 2:30:13 GMT -5
That's true, but I also knew an army Major who had built up a very clever fake record. He was only caught because his former Ranger Instructor (when the Major washed out of Ranger school) ended up in the same unit, and asked the major when he completed Ranger School. The resulting investigation turned up even more fraudlent awards, and fake airborne training. I don't know if they ever determined how he manged to get his official records doctored. But isn't it just an old story made more prevelant by the increase of American wars, patriotic groups and media coverage? Soldiers, sailors, explorers and other wild adventurers have been telling stories for thousands of years. Sometimes they are really windy and hard to believe. What would American history and culture be like without an occasional tall tale? I think the real problem is with fakes, who attempt to manipulate a system and commit fraud by wearing unissued uniforms/medals and creating false military records for some type of gain at the expense of others. I don't think we should supress the freedom of speech of the mostly harmless yarn-spinners in trying to catch the low-life crooks.
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Post by Chuck T on Apr 30, 2010 4:17:14 GMT -5
RR: I would agree with you about the yarn spinners and expression of free speech as far as it goes. But these types of activities often start with such harmlessness and escalate into what we all despise. Somebody says - I don't believe you. The yarn spinner then comes back with - I'll show you.
Wolfpack's scenario is thankfully rare and ultimately exposed in most instances.
I investigated a first sergeant once who spent that period of his enlistment that mirrored the Vietnam War at Fort A. P Hill, VA. He wore a 82d Airborne Combat Patch and Combat Infantry Badge, and had not seen one day of combat anywhere, yet my investigation revealed that he had worn these items on his uniform for years as determined by sworn witness statements. He was allowed to retire, and he was extremely lucky. When faced with the body of evidence his only statement was that by wearing the patches and badges he thought he would impress his troops. His only saving grace in my mind was that he claimed no Purple Heart or decorations for valor. I suppose in his case he could bring himself to only go so far.
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Post by Chuck T on Apr 30, 2010 4:35:56 GMT -5
Hiram: I guess that most know that John Ford "helped" John Wayne direct the Alamo. From what I know the story goes that Ford showed up on the set in Brackettville and told Wayne he was here to help him and Wayne had so much respect for Ford and owed him so much that he could not bring himself to turn him away. Don't know what location scenes Wayne gave him to shoot, but I suspect one at least was the patrol scene with Ken Curtis where they were chased by two converging Mexican patrols. That looked pure Ford.
Although Bellah wrote the stories all of the ones you mentioned I don't think he did any of the screenplay adaptations, or perhaps just one. The movies (less Rutledge which stands alone and was a movie from the get go as well as a Carlton Young tour de force) were based upon
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon -------The Sutler's Daughter and The Big Hunt Fort Apache - Massacre Rio Grande - Mission With No Record
See also John Ford's "Judge Preist" with Will Rogers a lot of the Yellow Ribbon lines were lifted verbatum from there. You could almost see what Ben Johnson and Harry Carey Jr. would do with those lines you posted - Thanks
I ask pardon for posting this on the stolen valor thread but in a way it is an appropriate place in that many if not all of us first learned valors meaning from films such as these
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