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Dolson
May 20, 2007 13:17:35 GMT -5
Post by stuart on May 20, 2007 13:17:35 GMT -5
Lindley didn't make the link, that was entirely down to little old me counting on my fingers.
I think to pick up on Jim's point, the execution of some Federalista prisoners would have been no great deal. Joe, remember only speaks of that one execution - Warner - yet he must have been around when it all happened. Again the problem is that we don't have a verbatim statement from him. Did he fail to see or hear of up to 14 men being executed or did he report them only to have that bit of his testimony ignored because the Gonzales lot were only interested in what had happened to the white folks. That would certainly be consistent
As for beheadings, I'm not at all sure the Mexicans executed people that way at all. My understanding is that they tended to shoot, stab, hang or whatever and then cut the heads off afterwards, so I wouldn't expect Barcena/Bergara et al to report beheadings
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Dolson
May 20, 2007 13:23:07 GMT -5
Post by Jim Boylston on May 20, 2007 13:23:07 GMT -5
The "outside" executions were reported by Arocha (Mantovina, p. 27), and are fairly specific that the surrendering defenders (holding little white flags) were executed by bayonet at Santa Anna's order. I think it's a big leap for us to conclude they were the among the bodies discovered (if there were, in fact, bodies discovered). Another point to consider is that one of the sources for the behading story appears to have been Madame Candelaria. Jim
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Dolson
May 20, 2007 13:34:49 GMT -5
Post by stuart on May 20, 2007 13:34:49 GMT -5
I think we've crossed threads on this discussion which doesn't seem to have much to do with Dolson anymore. I'm intrigued about Candelaria. I've not come across that connection before. Can you cite it?
Although she's generally regarded as being as trustworthy as a three dollar bill, this could be significant as she tended to be a bit of a magpie in the sense that if something was suggested to her she was sure to verify it. In this case did she speak about men getting their heads cut off before or after the Post Office was built?
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Dolson
May 20, 2007 13:40:36 GMT -5
Post by Herb on May 20, 2007 13:40:36 GMT -5
As for beheadings, I'm not at all sure the Mexicans executed people that way at all. My understanding is that they tended to shoot, stab, hang or whatever and then cut the heads off afterwards, so I wouldn't expect Barcena/Bergara et al to report beheadings That's the way I understand it - with the heads usually being place on pikes in places of prominence as a warning to others.
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Dolson
May 20, 2007 13:59:24 GMT -5
Post by Jim Boylston on May 20, 2007 13:59:24 GMT -5
But with this account, the bodies were reportedly removed for burial because of the shame felt by the Mexicans over the mutilations. They were mutilated, then moved. It could be that the witnesses saw the executions, and did not witness the mutilations, but I'm seeing fewer and fewer connections between the two reports. The Arocha report also does not mention a specific number of those who surrendered. I can't recall how Lindly made the numerical connection, other than maybe tying reports that mention white flags together. I don't have time to pull out all my notes right now, as I'm on another flight in a couple of hours, but maybe someone else could dig that up. Jim
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Dolson
May 20, 2007 14:01:15 GMT -5
Post by Jim Boylston on May 20, 2007 14:01:15 GMT -5
"Traces", page 329, paragraph 2 under "Bodies Cremated". Jim
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Dolson
May 20, 2007 14:03:44 GMT -5
Post by sloanrodgers on May 20, 2007 14:03:44 GMT -5
The first detailed accounts of the Alamo’s fall seemingly arrived in New Orleans with some passengers on the schooner Comanche and on March 28 the (New Orleans) Commercial Bulletin reported how “the battle was desperate until day-light, when only 7 men belonging to the Texian Garrison were found alive who cried for quarters, but were told there was no mercy for them; they then continued fighting until the whole were butchered.” Pardon. Was this the Mexican cargo ship Comanche that was captured by Isaac Burton's Rangers on June 17, 1836? If so, it seems like they would be too pre-occupied with collecting supplies ( a few months earlier ) for the Mexican army to be out gathering rumors on the Alamo.
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Dolson
May 20, 2007 14:09:09 GMT -5
Post by Jim Boylston on May 20, 2007 14:09:09 GMT -5
The report was published in April, IIRC. The publication of Crockett's name as one of the executed is clearly an editorial addition, but may have been the spark that ignited a more widespread rumour. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing if the Mexicans who mention Crockett heard the rumour after the fact, or in the case of those who were interrogated, how much they may have been led or coached during their interrogations. Jim
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