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Post by stuart on Apr 2, 2012 16:50:56 GMT -5
Tim, the simple fact of the matter is that Perry was a fantacist who told all sorts of wonderful things about himself and others.
Its quite obvious that he is not a reliable witness.
Are you seriously suggesting that while seemingly incapable of telling the truth about anything else an anecdote about Crocket coming from the lord knows where should be regarded as reliable?
As to those 1859 lectures all that we know with any certainty at this stage is that he delivered them, but given the nature of the rebuttal uncovered by Jim I think it can reasonably be supposed that they didn't differ in substance from those he delivered in 1847, otherwise why make a point of bringing forward witnesses such as Ben McCulloch to testify that Houston was leading from the front rather than shooting himself in the foot way in the rear?
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 2, 2012 17:08:25 GMT -5
His Houston stories at San Jacinto sound preposterous, which is not to say that Houston was entirely admirable, anymore than anyone else is. I'm fuzzy on the so-called "Lancer Account," but I recall hearing about it first at the Alamo Society Sympsoium that was held in Fraunces Tavern in New York several years ago. My recollection is that Perry had no first hand knowledge of the battle at all and that he got this from someone else; not sure if he said who his source was.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 2, 2012 21:17:31 GMT -5
You and SKR have convinced me to join the digital age! That sounds a little cryptic. I'm not sure what you mean or why you're referencing me. You're in the digital age, whether you decide to join it or not. You've been communicating via email and searching the internet for years and you've probably been using numerous digital devices (clocks, watches, pagers, cell phones, MP3s TVs, etc., etc.) to make your life easier like most of the world's population. Even your power grid and other services are run by computers. The only people, who haven't joined the digital age are the strictest survivalists and the remotest aboriginal peoples in undeveloped countries.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 2, 2012 21:31:39 GMT -5
His Houston stories at San Jacinto sound preposterous..... Are you implying that J. Hazard Perry didn't command the left wing, kill General Castrillion with his trusty sword and almost single-handedly win the battle of San Jacinto, so he could be immortalized in Huddlle's famous painting? I'm shocked Allen. Here's a portrait of Perry with a short biography. He looks like a tough fellow. www.nycivilwar150.org/cemetery_soldiers/james_perry.html
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 2, 2012 23:35:43 GMT -5
Gee, now you're giving me second thoughts! Are you as shocked as Claude Rains was in "Casablanca"
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Post by stuart on Apr 3, 2012 1:58:29 GMT -5
A Google search on Perry turned up PDF copies of the US Military Academy Registers:
Perry entered the Academy from New York State July 1 1833.
The following year's register places him as no 75 out of 76 cadets in the fourth class who made it through without being forced to repeat a year.
The 1835 list places him as No.70, way down at the very bottom and notes he had not attended for examination.
I offer this official record without comment.
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Post by timniesen on Apr 3, 2012 12:06:30 GMT -5
Due to shortage of time on the computer yesterday, I had read the 1847 but not the 1859 newspaper article before I commented on the issues raised by them. The main source of the 1859 article is a statement by Major Benjamin McCullough. This man was one of the leaders of the Houston's proposed filibuster expedition into Northern Mexico in 1859 and 1860. Although this expedition never happened, Senator Sam Houston himself was the primary political support for this expedition. Houston gave numerous speeches supporting the annexation of Northern Mexico, and this his proposed filibuster expedition became a prominent issue in his presidential campaign of 1860. Therefore, can this Texas ranger be trusted to tell the truth about his close ally and prominent supporter of the filibuster expedition that he was about to lead? If the private letter existed, why was it not quoted? Does it still exist? The fact that Col. Perry dropped out of West Point to lead the filibuster expedition to Texas is not a new issue. In 2003, I confirmed this by a letter to West Point. Tim
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Post by stuart on Apr 3, 2012 13:29:12 GMT -5
Tim, you're clearly not reading the same article as everyone else. The 1859 article recounts part of a lecture by Perry which was obviously substantially the same as his 1847 nonsense, and then by way of rebuttal offers both Rusk's official report and testimony by McCulloch. As to Perry himself. The statement that he left West Point to lead an expedition to Texas is patently nonsense. The printed registers which I quoted reveal that he finished bottom of the class in 1834 and in the following year he was not only still at the bottom of the class but failed to take the end of year examinations in June 1835. As you'll allow that the Texas revolt did not break out until October of that year he was a little premature in leaving off his studies to lead the expedition and I also rather suspect the notion he was leading it may have come as a considerable surprise to the rest of the Mattawamkeag's passengers. What we have here is a classic case of a student dropping out of college because he couldn't make the grade and then pretending in years afterwards that he could have been a contender if only...
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Post by Hollowhorn on Apr 3, 2012 15:59:28 GMT -5
Ok, I'll bite, what is the 'Lancer Account'?
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 3, 2012 16:22:36 GMT -5
I only have a vague memory, but as I recall it relates to a group of Texians who bolted the Alamo after the Mexicans got in, only to be killed by lancers out in the open. I think Perry related some second or third hand story he'd heard (or said he'd heard) that suggested Crockett was in that group, hence the "Lancer Account" to go along with the De La Pena account, the Walt Disney account, etc.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 3, 2012 18:40:53 GMT -5
A Google search on Perry turned up PDF copies of the US Military Academy Registers: Perry entered the Academy from New York State July 1 1833. The following year's register places him as no 75 out of 76 cadets in the fourth class who made it through without being forced to repeat a year. The 1835 list places him as No.70, way down at the very bottom and notes he had not attended for examination. I offer this official record without comment. You're mostly correct. While most of James H. Perry's biographies and obituaries state he graduated from West Point with honors or attended three years until patriotic sympathy compelled him to resign and rush to Texas, nothing could be further from the truth. I never expected Mr. Perry's mythical resume and contrary San Jacinto memories to be brought up again after TRL's passing, so I've been slow to dig up my old Perry file. As you implied, Perry's West Point stay was far from stellar. I'm sure it was a source of great disapointment to him and helped derail his military goals. His grades were poor and he never progressed beyond the third class or his second year at West Point. Perry didn't attend the June 1835 examination with his famous classmates Jubal Early and Braxton Bragg because he was no longer a student of the academy. The Register of Cadets (source: M.A. - W.P. pub. Serial Set Vol. No. 306, H. report 303) states that Perry was dismissed from West Point in 1834. He may have been kicked out for fighting or some reason other than grades or demerits. Regardless, James Perry had a year to decide whether he was going to return to practice law, hang out or head to the future Texas Republic.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Apr 4, 2012 8:46:53 GMT -5
If memory serves, in Perry's account of Crockett's death, Perry himself expressed doubts as to the story's veracity. It's been a long time since I wrote the rebuttal to TRL's Alamo Journal article about the account and I haven't referenced it since. Jim
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Post by timniesen on Apr 4, 2012 11:28:12 GMT -5
I admit that my recollections of the Perry information is a bit hazy too, but did Perry himself actually claim that he was a graduate of West Point? That other people stated that as fact is not a reflection upon his own veracity. My vague reference to the digital age was my lack of subscriptions to digitized newspaper collections. And Jim it was not you but rather Stuart who asserted on the old Alamo movie forum that the Lancer account of Crockett's death was a lie stated by Col. Perry. Your rebuttal to TRL's article simply stated that it was inaccurate and false. All we now know that it is 18 San Jacinto veterans plus Sherman, Perry, and Lamar against Houston plus three other San Jacinto veterans if we include the account in the New York Tribune in rebuttal to Perry's account there. Still long odds against Houston's version of the events there. Tim
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Post by stuart on Apr 4, 2012 11:28:54 GMT -5
Ok, I'll bite, what is the 'Lancer Account'? As Allen says, Perry delivered a lecture about the Texas Revolution which included an account of the Alamo fight lifted more or less word for word from Chester Newell's book, but added to it an "anecdote" he had heard about Crockett either being in an outlying fort or running to an outlying fort (I forget) and being killed by a lancer. It was dredged up as part of the late TRL's efforts to deny the possibility that Crockett may have surrendered and been executed. Personally I've never understood what the fuss is about. No-one is denying that the last Texians were executed and no doubt far more of them less formally murdered while lying wounded. Why it should matter so much that Crockett must have died swinging his rifle per Walt Disney or standing against a wall with arms folded bidding defiance I don't know, but that's a whole other thread and well away from the pathetic iniquities of Mr Perry.
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Post by stuart on Apr 4, 2012 11:33:01 GMT -5
IAll we now know that it is 18 San Jacinto veterans plus Sherman, Perry, and Lamar against Houston plus three other San Jacinto veterans if we include the account in the New York Tribune in rebuttal to Perry's account there. Still long odds against Houston's version of the events there. Tim I've no doubt that Houston's version of events was different from that presented by Sherman, but did all of those 18 veterans insist that Houston shot himself in the foot at the rear rather than leading from the front? There are many charges that rightly can be laid against Houston but I don't ever recall that one of them was cowardice.
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