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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 20, 2012 13:49:24 GMT -5
I thought Donovan's argument was compelling; he probably made the best case for the line that I've read.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 20, 2012 13:50:53 GMT -5
I think Donovan argued his case very persuasively and I can believe that someone made it out of the Alamo. Rose may have been a survivor of the battle or did leave when he said he did. The most important piece of evidence that Donovan has introduced is a statement by Susannah Dickinson confirming the story before the Zuber account was published. Previously, her confirmation of it in later interviews were treated skeptically because they all came after Zuber was published. This alone lends greater credibility to it.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 20, 2012 13:57:50 GMT -5
I'm not saying I buy the whole story verbatim; I think something like Travis drawing a line did take place, but I'm not sold on the full, melodramatic speech and dramatic sound of the scene in the Zuber account. I'm more interested in Susannah Dickinson's statement that "but one stepped out," which I took to mean that one man stepped out of ranks, not that the entire garrison crossed a line, except for Rose. It would seem more likely that Travis asked anyone who wanted to leave to step out of ranks, rather than asking the entire garrison to move. Of course, there was no guarantee that the entire garrison would cross a line, so Travis may have elected to put the onus on anyone who wanted to leave by making themselves conspicuous. It might be a bit tougher to openly step out in front of your comrades and announce you weren't willing to stick around than to march along with the group, although it didn't seem to bother Rose. I think something more like this happened; probably around March 4 or 5, when Travis sent the last messenger out (allegedly James Allen) and noted that the north wall was no longer holding; that "every shot goes through."
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Post by Hiram on Jun 20, 2012 15:32:01 GMT -5
I loaned out my copy of Donovan's book, so I don't have it to refer to. With that in mind, it's my recollection that Mrs. Dickinson spoke of "one stepped out" during her AG interview (1877.) It's also my recollection that Rev. R.C. Burleson in 1901 "quotes" Mrs. Dickinson saying Travis had drawn the line for men to cross over and fight and die.
I'm with Allen on the more likely scenario, which would be step out to depart, stand firm otherwise; seems both practical and effective.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Jun 20, 2012 16:37:50 GMT -5
Well, I received my book a few days ago, and have resisted the temptation to jump ahead (I'm on the road to Bexar with Santa Anna at the moment, so I still have a ways to go to get to Rose). I've often believed that someone must have made it out alive, either in the days before or perhaps during the battle. I mean, there were survivors at Goliad and the mass executions were carried out in the open in broad daylight. I will look forward to reading Donovan's narrative on this.
Paul
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Post by davidpenrod on Jun 20, 2012 17:13:26 GMT -5
Didnt Walter Lord document at least 3 cases of men who had succeeded in escaping from the Alamo during the final assault? I thought one of them was wounded. I seem to remember that from A Time to Stand's endnotes.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 20, 2012 17:20:57 GMT -5
I found Donovan's book to be a great read -- even with my rather deep understanding of the Alamo and its myths and realities.
In my days with tourists at Alamo Village, I was often asked to suggest a "best book" on the Alamo. Of course, this only induced me to hand them my own personal Alamo bibliography categorized into history, biography, popular myth, movies, etc., and try to determine just which Alamo -- or segment of the story -- they might find most interesting. Other than to point to Walter Lord, there was no effective *starter,* all-in-one, basic book to point them to that would do what Lord's did AND bring them up to speed with latter-day research and conclusions. Now there is.
And it's refreshing -- and important -- that his basic story is one of heroes first and tarnished men second. Important.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Jun 20, 2012 17:37:25 GMT -5
I have to agree (based on what I've read and heard so far about "Blood of Heroes"). In fact, someone just posted on my page on FB that someday she'd have to read or watch a movie on the Alamo. I just recommended Donovan's book for the reasons Rich just laid out.
Paul
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Post by David Bryan Singleton on Jun 20, 2012 20:52:56 GMT -5
Haven't I read somewhere that the "line in the sand" story has happened in several documented instances in history. I think Ben Milam did it before his action at the Alamo. I agree that this is a great book to recommend. The author has been hitting the radio talk shows here in Houston promoting the book.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 21, 2012 15:35:00 GMT -5
Lord noted that Brigido Guerrero survived the battle by persuading Mexicans that he had been held as a prisoner by the Texans. This is generally accepted. He also noted an article in the March 29, 1836 edition of the Arkansas Gazette that reported that two men, one badly wounded, had arrived in Nacogdoches with news of the Alamo's fall at a time when everyone still thought it was holding out. According to the article, the two men reported that "the garrison [was] put to the sword; that if any others escaped the general massacre besides themselves, they were not aware of it." He also repeats the possibility that Henry Warnell survived the battle, only to die of his wounds shortly afterward. And then, of course, there's Rose.
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Post by billchemerka on Jun 21, 2012 19:55:03 GMT -5
Jim Crisp countered Donovan on de la Pena, and Donovan replied in the new (July) issue of "Texas Monthly."
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Post by davidpenrod on Jun 21, 2012 20:11:23 GMT -5
Allen, thanks for saving me the time and Herculean effort of finding Lord's book in my wretched basement. I remember those details now. The two men in Arkansas and Warnell, if they are to be believed, may have participated in the breakout and successfully avoided the Mexican cavalry's lances. Given the darkness, I wonder if any others succeeded but were never heard from. It bogles the mind to think that men who participated in the siege and the final assault somehow escaped the carnage but their eye-witness testimony was never recorded. I wonder how much of the early Alamo myth-making, which started almost immediately after its fall, was based on stories told by such men?
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Post by davidpenrod on Jun 21, 2012 20:13:37 GMT -5
By the way, was the Arkansas Gazette the first paper to report on the Alamo's fall? Or were there others?
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 21, 2012 20:15:00 GMT -5
Jim Crisp countered Donovan on de la Pena, and Donovan replied in the new (July) issue of "Texas Monthly." I haven't read Jim D's reply, but I didn't think Jim C's counter argument was a particularly strong one. Interested parties would do well to read William C. Davis's, "How Davy Probably Didn't Die," probably the best overview of the entire controversy. The Crisp-Lindley debates on the issue that ran over the course of a few issues of the Alamo Journal are also must reads, but I didn't find either argument completely convincing. I don't agree with Jim Crisp about the Crockett execution, but I thought he won that debate. Jim
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 21, 2012 23:10:14 GMT -5
The first surviving news report of the Alamo's fall appeared in the Telegraph and Texas Register on March 24, 1836. Four days later, the story hit the New Orleans papers and quickly spread throughout the U.S.
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