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Post by mjbrathwaite on Aug 11, 2011 17:42:20 GMT -5
Hi folks, American culture, via movies, TV, comics and the like played a great part in our lives here in the west of Scotland. It is strange that when you consider the centuries of history that we have on our own doorstep that we should have such a fascination for the deeds & doings of such a faraway country. I guess it comes down to the media that influenced us as children. My own sons have very little knowledge of the American west & very little interest in the subject, if truth be told. I suppose they in turn grew up with their own media led influences. It pains me that I cannot get them to sit down & watch TV shows such as 'Lonesome Dove' etc. Hell, I can't even get them to settle down long enough to watch 'The Wire' It's too slow' to hold their attention I suppose. The lack of interest in the American West in the younger generation seems widespread: my son is 20, and has never shown any interest in it outside of "Fievel Goes West" and "Back to the Future 3" - although he likes playing with pistols. The usual explanation is that with the advent of space travel, an interest in that replaced an interest in the old West. I'm not really convinced of that, as I took a mild interest in space travel as a child, but never found it as interesting as the Alamo or the West in general. In films, I think it was largely a result of the demise of the Production Code and the ongoing protests by American Indians about their depictions in Westerns: the Production Code called for "compensating moral values", which provided a temporary relief of intrapsychic tensions in the viewer by means of the legitimization of violence provided by a hero being put into a position where he was forced to eliminate the villains in the classical Western plot, but when the Production Code was abandoned in the mid 1960s, the need to justify the violence went with it, and Western films no longer had the effect of making the viewer feel better, causing the genre to decline in popularity. From the earliest days of film-making, Indians complained about their portrayal in films, but white filmmakers were incapable of portraying them accurately, and could respond only with portrayals that were sympathetic but just as inaccurate. The problem was well illustrated by "Stay Away, Joe": Dan Cushman's novel has long been regarded as an important work, but when it was filmed, the film had none of the material that explained why the Indians acted as they did. The result was that the critics who had read the book loved the film, but those who had not hated it. By the 1960s, there were also complaints that science fiction films didn't have enough action on, as one writer put it, "a cowboys and Indians level". The result was that the science fiction genre took over the standard Western plots and replaced the Indians with aliens which would not attract protests. The Western then disappeared. That's my theory, anyway!
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Post by Hollowhorn on Aug 13, 2011 16:25:14 GMT -5
The result was that the science fiction genre took over the standard Western plots and replaced the Indians with aliens which would not attract protests. The Western then disappeared. That's my theory, anyway! What an interesting thought, this has never occured to me. As far as the 'Western' disappearing though, every other year or five produces one worth watching, I doubt that the genre will ever die. I can't say for sure why, I suppose every generation hankers back to a simpler way of doing things. Honesty & integrity (though little practiced these days) is still a goal in at least one little recess of the modern mind.
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Aug 13, 2011 21:20:04 GMT -5
They still make the odd one, but when I published my study of Westerns in 2005, the last major hit had been "Unforgiven" in 1992. I see there's a new Western out in which the heroes fight aliens! There's probably no reason why there couldn't still be hit Westerns if they put the Production Code's "compensating moral values" back into them.
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Post by loucapitano on Aug 14, 2011 12:35:04 GMT -5
That's a good thought MJB. I hadn't heard the phrase "compensating moral values" since I took a college film course in 1968. Before that, the phrase was "the good guys always win." And, even if they didn't win e.g. Custer and the Alamo, they went down in glory. I was about that time that the Hollywood, in answer to a changing public, began to introduce anti-heroes, like some Clint Eastwood characters. By the time they made the "Wild Bunch" and "Little Big Man" the code was practically dead. I agree, it sort of re-emerged in the science fiction fantasies like "Star Wars." But, even then there is often the anti-hero who not only fights the monster, but the evil entity behind it - like Ripley and the corporation in the Alien series. There have always been movies where the audience was required to think and emote beyond the usual entertainment factor like the John Steinbeck morality tales of the 30s. Audience acceptance for these kinds of movies comes and goes and is sometimes affected by economic or social conditions. It's hard to say where we are now. I saw that "Cowboys and Aliens" movie and was very entertained. But, for every one of those there seem to be a dozen boy meets girl flicks. I think we may see more westerns in the future, I just hope they aren't all sequels or copies of the cowboy/alien model. Again, welcome boba.
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Aug 15, 2011 17:32:20 GMT -5
It's hard to say where we are now. I saw that "Cowboys and Aliens" movie and was very entertained. But, for every one of those there seem to be a dozen boy meets girl flicks. I think we may see more westerns in the future, I just hope they aren't all sequels or copies of the cowboy/alien model. I guess what comes next depends on how the "Cowboys and Aliens" film does at the box office. The Western does seem to be attempting some sort of a comeback lately, but I doubt that following the "professional" plot, as in "True Grit", is the way to go, because it was when the "classical" plot in which the hero saved the society for noble reasons gave way to the "professional" plot in which a team of mercenaries saved it for money that the Western died. (I realize "True Grit" isn't quite like that, but it falls into that plot category). Michael Brathwaite.
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Post by loucapitano on Aug 16, 2011 10:38:05 GMT -5
Cowboy stories aka "Horse Operas" caught the public's attention because of the classical plot involved the conflict between people(s). Each story had a beginning, middle and conclusion, that if it was well written, tied up the loose ends to an overall satisfactory ending. What made the western unique was the conjuction of the pioneer and the wilderness. When problems arose, the hero (the pioneer) was generally alone and had to address that problem himself because the western wilderness hadn't formed societies that could assure the safety of its people. When the bad men rode into town, the lone sheriff had to face down the villains. If the cattle barrons threatened the homesteaders, the conflict was settled by the parties themselves. No lawsuits. No peaceful protests. The side with the most force generally took control until the bravery and determination of the lone good guy saved the day. Hundreds of movies and TV shows portrayed these conflicts. The best of which, in my opinion were "High Noon", "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence", and TV's "Gunsmoke. Substitute the greedy cattle barrons with Santa Anna and Matt Dillon with the Texicans and you have the classic western where the good guys stand up against the bad guys, alone. Of course, its drama, not history. Its what sells. So I tend to agree with John Ford, "...Print the Legend!" Although I do enjoy history when its brought to the screen properly. Most recently we saw the movie about the Lincoln Assassination plot "Conspirators" which purported to have historical accuracy, and didn't do a bad job. Lou Capitano
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Post by Hollowhorn on Aug 16, 2011 17:28:41 GMT -5
Of course, its drama, not history. Its what sells. I agree with you Louc, though I do wonder where it all went wrong for 'Heaven's Gate' Now, I can't vouch for the history part, though I assume they tried to get some of the details right. I think it is a wonderful piece of historical drama, yet it died a death & took the parent company with it. Was it down to the length of the movie, the muddy sound perhaps? I think it's a stunning 'Western' & firmly believe that it will eventualy be seen as a 'classic' of the genre.
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Aug 18, 2011 3:35:19 GMT -5
I've never actually seen "Heaven's Gate" as I didn't get to it when it was shown in cinemas in New Zealand, and as far as I know it has never been shown on free-to-air television here. I must admit I find the length of it daunting. You gentlemen both obviously know what you're talking about. I'm probably not telling you anything you don't know, but in the mid 1970s, a sociologist called Will Wright wrote a fascinating book called "Sixguns and Society: a Structural Study of the Western", which I'm currently rereading. Fortunately I no longer have to rely on our university's copy as I found a new edition of it in a San Francisco bookstore some years ago. It has inspired my work as a film historian for many years, and I have been slowly working my way through the genres producing similar studies. Michael Brathwaite.
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Post by markpatrus on Aug 18, 2011 15:51:59 GMT -5
John Wayne once stated that Sam Peckinpah killed the western with 'The Wild Bunch'. Most film buffs will tell you Michael Cimino killed the western his 'Heaven's Gate' drove Universal Studios under. But to really understand how all this evolve is to look at the beginnings of 'Tinstletown' or otherwise referred to as Hollywood. Jewish immigrants arriving off the ships on Ellis Island found it hard to find work and bigotry towards them in New York City in the early 1900s. A brand new industry that was being born in Los Angeles and drew many of these immigrants across the country to find work. Hence the beginning of the major film studios. the western was popular during the silent and early sound days of film. People paid money to see them and the locales were easily accessible right outside of Los Angeles. The back lots and sound stages were used over and over again for one film after another. Profits drove the industry and still do. The studio moguls never were interested in art, just profit. That's where some of the legendary directors did battle with producers to produce some of the masterpieces we still enjoy today. And I agree, 'Heaven's Gate' is a masterpiece. So is 'The Wild Bunch'. I will say this that both were very loosely based on a historical event. The only thing that was close to historically accurate in 'Heaven's Gate' was Christopher Walken's character, Nate Champion getting shot to pieces by the hired guns of the Stockmen's Association. With all that said, what happened to the western?
This day and time, the current rank and file movie goer could care less about westerns. Look at what has happened to history being taught in the public schools. Now with the box office performance of 'Cowboys and Aliens' being less than what the studio moguls hoped for may derail the future production of a new 'Lone Ranger'. Some say lack of good material out there to develop into a good screenplay. I beg to differ. And with all the remakes that have been and are being done, the studios still own those scripts and film rights. Bad time to be a screenwriter in Hollywood right now.
Well what about the remake of 'True Grit'? It took a duo of unconventional filmmaking brothers to pull that one off to become their most profitable film yet. Some say the new 'True Grit' revitalized the western film. I'm not so sure. And there are some bad made for cable or straight to DVD productions aren't helping the cause either. I'm currently reading 'St. Agnes' Stand' by Tom Eidson. He also wrote 'The Last Ride' which became the film titled 'The Missing' which has become one of my favorites. Scorsese is said to have optioned the story for film. A lot of good books are optioned for film, but never make it into production.
John Wayne once was quoted saying that what made the western so unique was the basis of the conflict. Man against man. Man against nature. And man against himself. Sometimes all three combined. That is adventure. That is drama. The major studios aren't interested in that. The main reason 'True Grit' got remade was because the Coen brothers wanted to make it. And after their run with the Oscars for 'No Country for Old Men', the studios didn't balk.
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Post by Hollowhorn on Aug 19, 2011 17:42:41 GMT -5
John Wayne once stated that Sam Peckinpah killed the western with 'The Wild Bunch'. Others would say that Peckinpah gave birth to a new breed of 'Western' I believe they call it 'Revisionist'. I doubt Eastwood could have made 'Josey Wales' or 'Unforgiven' without Peckinpah & without Peckinpah, 'Deadwood' would never have seen the light of day. That is not to say that Peckinpah was the first to break with 'Western' tradition, you only have to look at Ford's 'The Searchers' to see which way the tumbleweed the was blowing. The recent past is littered with 'Western' classics from 'Dances with Wolves' to 'Open Range' via 'Lonesome Dove', 'Streets of Laredo' & dare I say it, 'The Last Samurai'. The new frontier? I'd never thought of it that way before, my goodness, how history repeats itself. Yes, Tom Edison is a wonderful writer, 'The Missing' is a superb adaption of of the book & I hope Scorsese turns his option into filmic reality. Now, if that movie is not a 'Modern' western classic, I don't know what is.
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Post by loucapitano on Aug 21, 2011 12:04:24 GMT -5
If you get the Encore Western Channel on cable, you can enjoy some of the adult western TV shows of the 50s and 60s. Gunsmoke, Cheyenne, Lawman, Have Gun Will Travel, Virgian, etc. There are also a heap of Gene Autry chestnuts. Their choice of movies is OK, if a bit repetitive. (If I see the Hallaluyah Trail one more time, I might go Postal.) I did get to see the E.L.Doctorow "Welcome to Hard Times" recently. It did an 80% job of reproducing the book until the censors or the studio got hold and cleaned up the ending. I suppose they'll show other TV westerns as the current ones run their course. Now that I have grandkids, I'd love a Kids TV Western Channel with The Lone Ranger, Wild Bill Hickock, Hopplong Cassidy, Rin Tin Tin and Red Rider (and his BB Gun) etc. I've got a pretty good collection of these shows now, but I'm sure cable networks have more. Does anyone know if some of these shows are on other cable networks?
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Aug 21, 2011 19:01:23 GMT -5
Maybe I should move to America! I don't have cable, but I get to see their schedules from time to time, and I'm pretty sure that Encore Westerns isn't available in New Zealand. TV didn't start here until 1960, and we didn't get it until late 1963, although before that I used to go to neighbours homes to watch "Wagon Train", "Bonanza", and "Maverick". I also I used to read comics of "Gunsmoke" and "Cheyenne" etc., and eventually got to see some of the shows, but there were a lot I read about but never got to see, such as "Have Gun, Will Travel" and "Lawnman", either because they were shown before we got TV at our house or not at all. "Bonanza" is sometimes shown on a local channel, but the episodes I've seen lately have all been ones I already had on DVD.
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Post by loucapitano on Aug 22, 2011 15:42:58 GMT -5
MJB - A lot of these shows are availalbe in DVD Box sets. I was able to get all the Have Gun Will Travel series. I think there were three or four seasons. BTW - Have Gun and Lawman were both before 1960. Do you have access to satelite TV in New Zealand? That could solve your problem, unless they don't broadcast in the southern hemisphere. Also, a lot of these showes aired in Black and White and eventually converted to color. Networks often don't bother with the B&W. It's amazing, but our public library has a huge collection of TV series going back to the 50s. I even found "Howdy Doodie!"
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Aug 25, 2011 19:28:13 GMT -5
I don't have access to satelite T.V.: I think it can be accessed from here, but I don't know anyone who has it. A friend who had a TV channel used to show American concerts that I understood he got from a satelite, but unfortunately I can't ask him about it as their building collapsed in an earthquake earlier in the year and he was inside it at the time. Box sets of DVDs come out here, but I don't usually look for them. I got my "Bonanza" DVDs and a few others from clearance bins, but don't want too many as, being something of a hoarder, I have a storage problem. If they came on TV, I could record them on DVDs and keep them on spindles, but I'd rather be able to just watch them when they came on TV. Now I think about it, the ones that are rerun on TV here tend to be the same ones that I see in stores. It would be nice to see some of the ones I saw in the 1960s or just read about and didn't see, but it's more an idle wish than a determination to do anything about it.
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Post by loucapitano on Sept 8, 2011 17:57:43 GMT -5
I've been away for a few weeks due to Hurricane Diane that dumped a ton of water on the Northeast coast and devestated Vermont. Today, rain continued and flooded Pennsylvania and New Jersey (again). We were lucky on Long Island, most only lost electricity for a day, but some areas took a week to power-up and remove toppled trees. This came on top of a little "earthquake" from Virginia that just shook us up a bit. Hope all the forum members who experienced these events are safe and well. Lou
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