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Post by mjbrathwaite on Mar 30, 2011 16:31:00 GMT -5
P.J. Proby? I haven't heard that name in .... decades! As far as the Beatles, I do have a buddy who has a genuine Pete Best autograph -- he met Pete in his travels some years ago. Pretty cool. As I imagine you are aware, P.J. Proby is from Texas. After years of alcohol-related problems, he's got his act together and is touring regularly in Europe. Regarding Pete Best, my wife met him a few years ago, but there was a limit to the number of autographs she could get so she didn't get one for me. At least she got me Charlie Musselwhite's!
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Post by bmoses on Apr 6, 2011 10:06:49 GMT -5
I've been looking at the title of this post for several days now and felt I just have to respond. There's something about the phrase "Battle Relics for Sale" that actually makes my stomach turn. I suppose it could be the chemo – but I’m sure it’s something more. Let me tell a short story to illustrate my point.
I am currently in discussions with a property owner in Goliad to gain access to two of the three massacre sites so that we might be able to survey the boundaries of the locations and record any artifacts that may be left behind. I have a cousin in Goliad, Linda Austin, who is president of the Presidio La Bahia Chapter and is helping me with discussions with the landowner (also a member of the DRT chapter). I have also included Gregg Dimmick in the discussions as I hope he can organize a small, discrete, metal detector group after we gain access to the properties.
Unfortunately, yesterday I also learned a bit more about these sites. Apparently, a gentleman from the Victoria area was allowed onto the property a number of years back, and he used a metal detector on the two sites to get every single artifact he could find. The property owner at the time told him he could keep everything he found. It turns out that the gentleman donated a few of the nicer pieces to the Alamo (not sure why they didn’t go to Presidio La Bahia), but the remainder was priced and put on the open market. I was also told that this individual spent a great deal of time metal detecting in Mexico at a number of Mexican War battle sites and has since been trying to pass of many of these items as Texas Revolution era artifacts. I’m not sure if what’s left of the man’s collection from the massacre site remains together or if they are now mixed in with the rest of his massive collection, but I will try to contact him and ask to record any details of the artifacts that remain in his possession. The sad part is that we could have surveyed this site, recorded the exact location of each artifact; every button and every ball, and it’s quite possible that we could have put together rather complete picture of how these brave men were executed. Now, we just hope to record the general boundaries of the massacre sites so that the locations may be preserved for future generations.
I believe that selling artifacts from these massacre sites is a sin. The artifacts are more than just objects to admire and hang in a shadow box on the wall. They are sacred objects - the sole remaining physical materials from an event that we all now share in our collective history. The site and artifacts should have been treated with great care and humility. However, I plan to press on and do what can be done to record what’s left of the sites. With any luck, I’m hopeful that I can convince the property owners to be good stewards of these important locations. Military sites like these are irreplaceable. Once the site is looted and/or destroyed, it is gone forever.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Apr 6, 2011 10:21:28 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that, Bruce. I agree completely. When these sites are pillaged, with no oversight from experts, we lose not only the relics but the chance for an accurate historical interpretation of the event. There oughta be a law.
Jim
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 6, 2011 11:37:54 GMT -5
Ditto here, Bruce. Screwing up an archeological site is screwing up history. I feel the same when I ask for a particularly important document at a library and find that "it's missing," which happens more than you might think, including the Library of Congress, where nothing may be checked out. They often misfile things there, too. I've had objects delivered to my work station one day and a week later be told they are "missing." But, you're right - we have to press on and make the best of it.
Allen
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 6, 2011 17:53:55 GMT -5
I've been looking at the title of this post for several days now and felt I just have to respond. There's something about the phrase "Battle Relics for Sale" that actually makes my stomach turn. I suppose it could be the chemo – but I’m sure it’s something more. I apologize for the thread title Bruce and didn't mean to make anyone ill. I was only trying to invoke visions of the charlatans and priests that sold and promoted fake relics as the only way peasants in the Middle Ages could obtain absolution. I wouldn't class the San Jacinto Cannon Ball and Montgomery Bowie Knife as actual artifacts, but get get your point on the blatant thievery at Texas historical sites and the unfortunate sale of our heritage to the highest bidder. Correction: San Jacinto battle artifacts.
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Post by tmdreb on Apr 6, 2011 23:20:35 GMT -5
I actually don't doubt that the cannonball in question could have been found at or near the battleground. The museum collections are quite full of artifacts found at or around San Jacinto, but from a later period. They have a decent collection of Civil War era bayonets "used at the battle" as well as a bunch of buttons and other items that are interesting in their own right. We can't forget that sites like SJ were not immediately preserved as state or national parks when the battle was over.
One of my favorite artillery projectiles is a 32 lb roundshot in the museum at Mansfield, Louisiana. At some recent point in its existence, some wag inexplicably arc welded foot long spikes all around the projectile until it resembled an iron sea urchin. When donated to the museum, it was described as "that Confederate cannonball that whipped around and killed everyone."
A friend who worked at this site for awhile took a phone call from a local farmer who said he'd plowed his field and found a cannonball. Trying to determine if it could be a still-potent live shell, my friend asked the farmer if the ball seemed hollow or solid. The response came back, "hold on, let me drop it on the slab and see....." Thankfully, it was solid.
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Post by bmoses on Apr 7, 2011 7:09:40 GMT -5
I apologize for the thread title Bruce and didn't mean to make anyone ill. I was only trying to invoke visions of the charlatans and priests that sold and promoted fake relics as the only way peasants in the Middle Ages could obtain absolution. I wouldn't class the San Jacinto Cannon Ball and Montgomery Bowie Knife as actual artifacts, but get your point on the blatant thievery at Texas historical sites and the unfortunate sale of our heritage to the highest bidder. I completely agree RangerRod, it wasn't the title but rather the fact that the practice of making money on war related artifacts does exist that I was speaking to.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Apr 7, 2011 11:25:55 GMT -5
Raiding the fields and battle sites as described above amounts to desecration, plain and simple.
Every time I visit the Alamo and stand in front of the church, I'm reminded of a story one of my long-ago schoolteachers told our class back maybe 50 years ago. Here we are in New Hampshire, far removed from Texas, and there was a tiny photo and a one-paragraph description of the battle (that was it) in out history textbook. The teacher told us that people used to take bits of stone and, worse, pry musket balls out of the wall for souvenires.
What scares me is that there undoubtedly are people who with clear conscience would still do that today, if given a chance.
Paul
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Post by sloanrodgers on Apr 18, 2011 22:17:29 GMT -5
Here's an interesting relic story about a 16 inch knife or machete with a fruit tree handle that was found in Orange, Texas.
Fort Worth Gazette - Oct. 21, 1891
Texas News and Notes
Quite a curious relic was recently unearthed by Mr. J. S. Brice at Orange. It is a large knife about sixteen inches long, called a Spanish machete. The handle was made of sapote and bound on the ends by Mexican gold. Under this knife, or machete, was found a piece of lead or metal bearing the inscription of Santa Anna.
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Post by sloanrodgers on May 19, 2011 22:07:57 GMT -5
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nybob
Full Member
Posts: 26
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Post by nybob on Jun 1, 2011 18:30:02 GMT -5
Paul i watch "Pawn Stars" all the time. If someone ever brought in a Crockett rifle that was authentic Rick would say its too old and offer him fifty bucks, maybe seventy five. I like the show but they drive me crazy. Bob
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Post by Kevin Young on Jun 1, 2011 19:58:54 GMT -5
Paul i watch "Pawn Stars" all the time. If someone ever brought in a Crockett rifle that was authentic Rick would say its too old and offer him fifty bucks, maybe seventy five. I like the show but they drive me crazy. Bob And then they would go out and shoot it!
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johnk
Full Member
Posts: 67
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Post by johnk on Nov 7, 2011 12:09:30 GMT -5
I contacted this Ebay seller and told him that his 26 pound cannon ball has no connection with the battle of San Jacinto as his item is too large. He basically said that he doesn't care about all the contemporary accounts and witness testimony and is just trying to get as much as he can for his ball. He's simply looking for a gullible sucker. Try Phil Collins
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Post by teresa1971 on Nov 7, 2011 15:36:49 GMT -5
Being that Phil Collins is knowledgeable in Alamo/ Texas History he seems to fall to scammers when it comes to artifacts of Alamo/Texas History!!!!
Do he knows what he is buying or, does he believed whatever people/sellers telling him?
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Post by sloanrodgers on Nov 7, 2011 22:47:36 GMT -5
Being that Phil Collins is knowledgeable in Alamo/ Texas History he seems to fall to scammers when it comes to artifacts of Alamo/Texas History!!!! Do he knows what he is buying or, does he believed whatever people/sellers telling him? I don't know if that's accurate. Perhaps we haven't had the opportunity to fall for any Alamo scammers. Methinks Mr. Collins probably has more real artifacts than most fans and is satisfied with their authenticity. All I have is an old cannon ball from SA and some Alamo gift shop crap.
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