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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 30, 2008 23:46:19 GMT -5
Has anybody picked up on the similarity of the relationship between the southwest corner and the Charli house to that of the Presidio La Bahia's southeast corner and Madam Garcia's house?
On Joseph M. Chadwick's map of the presidio, he shows a house identified as "Madam Garcia's house." It sits about the same distance east of the southeast corner bastion as the Charli house does south of the southwest corner.
Chadwick's note for this feature says, "Madam Garcia's house, new & very strongly built. A platform to be laid from this house to A [the bastion] & a 6-pounder mounted on the roof which commands the ford & road from Victoria, the Refugio Road and 3/4 of the circle of country N.W. to S.W. [sic?]
At first glance, my thought would be the same as with the Alamo's S.W. corner: What would be the advantage of being a few feet farther out. But, of course, with a cannon mounted on the house, that would provide much additional coverage. But as an outpost for a picket? Not as great an advantage, I would agree.
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Post by Herb on Mar 31, 2008 10:15:00 GMT -5
Potrero (A pet peeve of mine, sorry.) No, thank you for the correction.
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Post by Herb on Mar 31, 2008 10:32:22 GMT -5
At first glance, my thought would be the same as with the Alamo's S.W. corner: What would be the advantage of being a few feet farther out. But, of course, with a cannon mounted on the house, that would provide much additional coverage. But as an outpost for a picket? Not as great an advantage, I would agree. Please, do not take this the wrong way, but I think this discussion is revealing, in that we can all see from it, why Travis probably did not position any men in the Charli House. Bob Durham's last post, probably voices best why the Charli House should have been manned. But, here's another go. It's not that positioning men in the Charli House gave Travis any advantage - it did not. But, positioning men in the Charli House would have denied Santa Anna an advantage - the ability to approach the Alamo's southwestern face undetected. The army defines key terrain has any terrain that gives one side or the other a significant advantage. Key terrain, by definition, needs to be controlled/or its effects minimized (by some means or another). Travis's specific problem is that without fortifying the Charli House, he had no way to dispute the physical control of the Charli House. However, by placing an OP in the Charli House, Travis would take away one of the biggest advantages that it gave Santa Anna, the ability to approach undetected. As long as the Charli House existed, it was going to provide a covered approach to the Alamo. The only way to minimize this threat at all was to ensure that the defenders knew, beforehand, that the Mexicans were using it.
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Post by stuart on Mar 31, 2008 13:05:46 GMT -5
Exactly so, which brings us back to my original post. The Charli house offered a "covered approach" to the southern/south western face of the Alamo - there may well have been a connection with the reference to Santa Anna discovering a "covered road".
Although it clearly couldn't be included within the defensive perimeter, Travis needed to have a picket/OP either sitting on top of it or operating out of it to give warning of any Mexican approach from that direction.
We know from both sides that the Mexican approach from the north was detected before they reached the wall, so I'm suggesting that comment by Joe that some got on to the walls because the external sentries failed to give any warning most likely refers to the picket/OP at the Charli house and Morales' unheralded siezure of the SW gun platform and the gate.
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Post by elcolorado on Mar 31, 2008 20:50:19 GMT -5
Herb Wouldn't this have been a great topic for discussion at Erine's Lounge? We might still be there! Just think of all the adult beverages we would have consumed. I believe we're heading for a "Mexican stand-off" on this subject. Look...we all agree that the Charli House created a "blind spot." That it was a weakness and it needed to be addressed. Right?....Right! So the real issue is what to do about it. Stuart You and I are in partial agreement...I think. As I have been saying, if you want an early warning system you need to employ advanced pickets. A man positioned 50-100 yards away from the SW corner is going to be able to hear, see, and identify advancing enemy soldiers much sooner then someone who is only 50 feet away. The advanced picket will be able to sound the alarm sooner, giving the garrison precious time to prepare. A man on picket duty inside the Charli house will undoubtedly have his vision and hearing impaired due to the enclosed space he is operating from. And because of the close proximity to the Alamo, by the time he discovers the approaching enemy it is already too late. Surprise attack successful. An advanced picket who is strategically positioned to observe both the Charli house and the acequia has a much better chance of detecting the enemy. If you want to avert a surprise attack you have to have your OP outside and away from the house. So as I see it, there is no advantage to be gained by positioning a man inside the building. However, you do enjoy several advantages by keeping your observer outside. I just do not see how it can be successfully argued otherwise. Alright. Let's all head over to Ernie's for a draft. Anyone.....anyone?? ;D Glenn
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Post by Allen Wiener on Mar 31, 2008 23:01:45 GMT -5
I'd comment -- but I'm here at Ernie's waiting for you guys! Where are you? All at the Charli house?
AW
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Post by Herb on Apr 1, 2008 10:29:04 GMT -5
OK, Glenn, We're not that far apart. I'll agree with you that if there was another position that could observe the approach to the Charli House and the acequia, that it might be a better position to do so. However, putting an OP at the Charli House doesn't necessarily mean inside the Charli House. What we are really talking about here is placing an OP or picket (if you prefer to historically correct ) where it could observe into the avenue of approach that the Charli House blocked any observation from the walls. I'll stand by my statement about that I liked using the Charli House as a place to post the pickets on the south from and that I would not be adverse to making the Mexicans think it was manned. This may force the Mexicans to plan on attacking the Charli House - and be another way of forcing early warning. Of course, we're dealing with hypotheticals here, which are better dealt with at Ernie's or the Menger!
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Post by elcolorado on Apr 1, 2008 15:35:46 GMT -5
Herb The Menger is nice but small and smoky. I like Ernie's. But we should hurry...Allen has been holding a table since yesterday. The "illusion" of an occupied Charli house sounds good...keep'm guessing. Glenn
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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 1, 2008 20:17:00 GMT -5
I really think that an outpost at either the Menger or Ernie's would be far more effective than at the Charli house. First, he/she has a much better view (from the Menger) of the palisade and tambour as well as the Charli house itself and the abandoned acequia. Ernie's, on the other hand, provides the best view of the eastern courtyards and the apse battery -- and could be accessed from the escape tunnel that leads to the garita and powder house. The drawback to the connecting trench (between the Menger and Ernie's) woud be the problem of climbing over a sleeping, snoring, brewery-breathing Wolfpack half way along the trench. Of course, there is also the consideration that an outpost at either Ernie's or the Menger could lead a fallback to Gonzales, if the going got rough -- and if he were not too plastered. NOW, HOW COME NOBODY PAID HOMAGE TO MY ABSOLUTELY EARTH-SHAKING COMPARISON OF THE CHARLI HOUSE AND THAT OF MADAM GARCIA?
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Post by elcolorado on Apr 1, 2008 21:20:27 GMT -5
I nominate the above quote as "Post of the Month." My sides are still aching from laughing so hard. Oh well. There goes our reputation as a site for serious study. Glenn
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Post by Rich Curilla on Apr 2, 2008 17:56:02 GMT -5
I nominate the above quote as "Post of the Month." My sides are still aching from laughing so hard. Oh well. There goes our reputation as a site for serious study. Glenn That thought occurred to me, but I had to do it. Sorry. I'll shut up.
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Post by Herb on Apr 2, 2008 21:32:19 GMT -5
That thought occurred to me, but I had to do it. Sorry. I'll shut up. Nah, I think the only problem is you got me confused with Allen - he's been waiting almost 48 hours at Ernie's, now, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't waiting on us to get started.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Apr 3, 2008 11:48:54 GMT -5
Has it been that long? Man, time flies when you're having fun. I forgot all about you guys. Probably still be here next HHD.
AW
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