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Post by Phil Riordan on Sept 7, 2010 19:11:01 GMT -5
I've begun to wonder to what extent Wayne influenced Grant's "Alamo" script. In a documentary included on an "Alamo" VHS release, Ken Curtis remarked that Wayne had everyone acting and talking like Wayne. Why would Grant complete so many rewrites if not to please Wayne? Is it possible that Wayne's influence on the "Alamo" script made it the monument to speechifying that it became?
Again, just wondering.
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Post by Seguin on Sept 8, 2010 7:07:02 GMT -5
I would´nt be surprised if Wayne got Grant to include the "Republic speech" in the cantina.
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Post by Hiram on Sept 8, 2010 14:00:28 GMT -5
I understand that this is a fun thread, so I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right spot, but here goes anyway.
Everyone can "hear" John Wayne's political voice as Crockett, it is unmistakable. Film critics and analysts sometimes view the film as analogous to the Cold War. Simply put, it wasn't Crockett v. Santa Anna's army, it was John Wayne v. Communism; therefore the pundits howled at that "republic" speech as pure Duke and no Davy.
The problem with that analysis is that Crockett himself altered the oath he swore to upon entering military service in Texas to include the word "republican."
Yes, it is John Wayne being John Wayne, but at least in this one section of the film, there is some actual history behind those words.
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Post by Wade Dillon on Sept 8, 2010 17:18:15 GMT -5
Wade, I think you miss the point of the scene. Travis is joking with Bowie. That's why he's stating the obvious. Bowie is responding to Travis' obvious sarcastic self-criticism by complimenting him -- in a backhanded way. Then Travis speaks truth by saying he will have to settle for what he is. Watch the scene again and see if I'm not right. Right, Rich. I just didn't find it abundantly clear to the audience. Then again, I'm probably thinking on it too much.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Sept 8, 2010 17:29:55 GMT -5
I've begun to wonder to what extent Wayne influenced Grant's "Alamo" script. In a documentary included on an "Alamo" VHS release, Ken Curtis remarked that Wayne had everyone acting and talking like Wayne. Why would Grant complete so many rewrites if not to please Wayne? Is it possible that Wayne's influence on the "Alamo" script made it the monument to speechifying that it became? Again, just wondering. If I may introduce a little Filmmaking 101 here to help answer this, the director is the be-all and end-all of all creative decisions on a film. Everything (script most importantly) must be approved by the director. Wayne absolutely had final say over what Grant wrote, but I'm afraid no one will ever know for sure how much he just accepted and how much he had Grant alter. I don't have as much against the Flaca speech as the Republic speech. That, at least, had the semblance of what his character might actually say to her rather than doing the filmmaking unpardonable -- putting your politics on the screen -- by delivering the sit-down, Wayne-on-Wayne Republic speech. The ONLY justification it could have historically (other than Crockett's change to his written oath) is to show that Crockett was a speechifier. And still, you don't do that by boring the audience with an actual speech. Just all-around bad form. But Grant wrote other monologues for Wayne's main characters in other movies, and they were shear poetry. Think of Hondo Lane's over-the-saddle rememberence of his Indian wife and G. W. McLintock's telling his daughter why she wasn't going to inherit the ranch. This stuff is art, IMO. In "The Alamo," I do find one speech artful. It's the "ready, willing and able" speech in Flaca's room. Fits so well that nobody even thinks of it in the same frame as the Republic or Flaca speeches. He is being chivalrous in the classic pattern. He will rescue this lady no matter what (politics is NOT involved). She even acknowledges that he would do it were she "fifty years old and wrinkled." This says Wayne (and Crockett) far more than any other dialogue in the movie.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Sept 8, 2010 17:31:38 GMT -5
I understand that this is a fun thread, so I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right spot, but here goes anyway.
"Never apologize, mister. It's a sign of weakness." (O.K. NOT from The Alamo, but hey, could I miss an op. like that?)
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Post by tonycaruana on Sept 10, 2010 18:09:42 GMT -5
My Favourite..." I hate to say anything good about that longwinded jackanapes but he does know the short way to start a war." Richard Widmark as Bowie about Travis
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Post by loucapitano on Sept 20, 2010 16:10:37 GMT -5
Smitty turns his horse and says, "I've got to get back to the Alamo!" (He would have approached the fort from the East or Northeast. Yet he meets Mrs. Dickenson who walks out of the Alamo to the Southwest at the top of a hill, which didn't exist. All this at about 10:00am while the sun is setting. Quite heartbreaking thanks to the choir singing the finale, with lot's of John Wayne dramatic license. e.g. "The Green Berets. But who cares? I still get a lump in my throat.)
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Post by garyzaboly on Oct 2, 2010 14:53:05 GMT -5
"Fire at will!" shouted by Lieutennat Finn to his line of riflemen, with Colonel Travis standing not far behind them.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Oct 2, 2010 18:47:37 GMT -5
I like when Travis shouts, "Cease fire!" only to be immediately followed by Finn shouting "Hold your fire! They're retiring."
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Post by garyzaboly on Oct 3, 2010 5:52:11 GMT -5
I like when Travis shouts, "Cease fire!" only to be immediately followed by Finn shouting "Hold your fire! They're retiring." Lieutenant Finn never had it easy---even when saying goodbye to a family he gets thrown up on.
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Post by Kevin Young on Oct 3, 2010 10:39:00 GMT -5
"Fire at will!" shouted by Lieutennat Finn to his line of riflemen, with Colonel Travis standing not far behind them. And in confusion, they all turn and point their weapons at Will Travis...
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Post by garyzaboly on Oct 3, 2010 14:52:25 GMT -5
"Fire at will!" shouted by Lieutennat Finn to his line of riflemen, with Colonel Travis standing not far behind them. And in confusion, they all turn and point their weapons at Will Travis... That's what I meant....Finn calls Col. Travis "Will" earlier in the movie. By that time, according to the movie, some of Bowie's men probably did want to "fire at Will."
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Post by Tom Nuckols on Oct 5, 2010 23:54:58 GMT -5
...with lot's of John Wayne dramatic license. e.g. "The Green Berets. But who cares? I still get a lump in my throat.) Have you ever noticed at the end of "The Green Berets" that the reporter (David Jansen) and the kid are standing on the beach in Vietnam at the end of the day, watching the sun set over the surf? What's wrong with that picture? ;-)
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Post by alanhufffines on Oct 7, 2010 9:37:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately, most 'hollywood' lines are dumb. Historical moves that use actual quotes as much as possible fare better. There is one Alamo Hollywood line that I thought best caught the man, the time, and the place and has always been a favorite of mine. It was the first time I saw Hunnicut's Davy saying farewell to Hayden's Bowie in the Last Command. "They'll eat snakes afore they git in here Jim." I felt chill bumps on my arm then and always stop and watch that scene. What a great use of that line would have been if Billy Bob had used it in the 2004 move after giving Bowie his pistols. My beloved former commander and fellow veteran of the Onion Trifles: You are correct, it is powerful--the scene that exists in THE ALAMO (2004) in the released version of the movie was heavily edited. As filmed, it involved a discussion between Crockett and Bowie, with them mending fences and Bowie preparing for his reunion with Ursula. Here is what Crockett said to Bowie BEFORE he handed him his pistols. "CROCKETT There was this feller from London, England. Wore dandy britches. He made a voice come out of his pocket, then he put it in my pocket. (Makes funny voice from pocket) 'Hello...Hello... I'm trapped in your pocket.' I liked to jump right out of my socks. And then he had him a moon-faced doll, mean as ten hornets, wearing a tricorn hat. She was real as you or me. (looking at his hand, making funny female voice) 'Hello. Hello. You're that Crockett feller, ain't ye?' (Crockett and Bowie laugh) I rode on a steam train, I rode on a steam boat. I'd trade all them memories for five more minutes of that doll in the tricorn hat. (Bowie and Crockett smile at each other)" That was a brilliant scene and brought tears to my eyes even in dailies. Reading the words on the page does not do justice to how Billy Bob played this scene out. Maybe soon we will all get to enjoy it in a director's cut. All you see of it now is Crockett cocking the pistols and handing them to Bowie. Pity
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