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Post by Allen Wiener on Mar 5, 2008 12:32:01 GMT -5
Tom,
Why not? Those areas became flooded and would have added to the fort's defense in any case. Also, these things were built by the Mexicans, who had a lot more men and military experience, not to mention discipline. So the dirt fill could have come from many places and have been hauled in, before the siege of Bexar put a stop to it. Same with the earth fill outside the north wall; you can see clearly where the work on that stopped. The remaining exposed timber made the wall far easier to climb when the Mexican attack came on March 6.
AW
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Post by cantador4u on Mar 5, 2008 12:48:33 GMT -5
My copy of Mark's book arrived yesterday. I would like to share my impression with everyone.
I guess it's OK if like old buildings...
Just Kidding!!! That would be my kids’ reaction.
WWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!
This book is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for anyone studying or interested in the Alamo. A person expects a book of “pretty pictures” to have just that, a bunch of pictures. One of the things that take this book beyond the norm is the treasure trove of DETAILED information in the text accompanying it and the diagrams and blueprint-like drawings in the appendices. I can't imagine the hours spent researching, collecting the information, organizing it, evaluating it, and then putting it in a coherent form to make it understandable to us lucky people reading it. It must have been at least a whole weekend in the library, huh? Think back to when you were writing your first research papers in high school. I know I was concerned about what was the minimum number of sources and the fewest number of pages I could get by with to get a good grade. I think Mark should get extra credit for the creative use of pictures. ;-)
I found the answer to one question that had been bothering me, and that is the "door of the dead" (page 100). I had never seen it discussed until now. But there is evidence of a couple other mystery openings on the other side of the chapel. You can see several filled in openings on the north side exterior of the chapel. One is arched and one was a square door. I don't see them on your model so my assumption is that they were probably put in by the US Army and then filled in later. These openings are pointed out in Historic American Buildings Survey drawings, specifically the North elevation on sheet 4 of 17.
I have a thousand other questions and deeply regret not being in San Antonio today, March 5.
Well, I guess I'll just go and RE-read Mark's book... AGAIN.
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Post by Herb on Mar 10, 2008 12:58:16 GMT -5
I can't say enough good about Mark. In what should have been a Victory Tour for Mark, where he should have done nothing but sign books and accept congratulations, he instead spent countless hours preparing for and conducting a tour around Alamo Plaza for our benefit- to include marking the layouts of the tambour, ditches, walls and buildings that no longer exsist, (Tom, I took notes and pictures to modify our walking tour! ). Then to top it off, he aided Gary Foreman in Gary's efforts to energize the revitalization of the Plaza. Mark's tour is probably the most educational experience I've had on one of these High Holy Days' events and that's saying a lot considering past events and the people involved.
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Post by TRK on Mar 10, 2008 14:33:20 GMT -5
(Tom, I took notes and pictures to modify our walking tour! ). Thank you, Wolf. That should help move the document along to the next stage. I was thinking about you guys while I was digging my way out of a snowbank this weekend
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Post by Allen Wiener on Mar 10, 2008 14:49:22 GMT -5
I can only add my endorsement to Wolfpack's praise for Mark. He really made this a memorable and educational weekend, adding so much to our vision of the Alamo and our understanding of the battle. Just standing at the northwest corner, looking back to the distant church and low barracks, brought home just how huge this place was and how few there were to defend it.
AW
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 10, 2008 19:23:09 GMT -5
Mark's tour is probably the most educational experience I've had on one of these High Holy Days' events and that's saying a lot considering past events and the people involved. I agree completely. What astounded me about the tour is that, hey, I'm a very visual person and have always been able to visualize the 1836 Alamo very well and simply trim that tree with any new information that is revealed, but Mark, Gary, et. al., caused me to go "Wow!" a number of times. I know how long the cannon ramps were, but when I saw them chalked out -- and walked them -- I was amazed. Likewise, I have always been able to guestimate where the north wall was, but when we got there and turned around, the size of the visualized compound was an eye-opener. And that gut-wrenching moment when we all were shown where Travis wrote the letter just as the ghoul and the carnival barker recording assaulted us from his quarters! Thanks guys.
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Post by mustanggray on Mar 12, 2008 22:02:19 GMT -5
List,
I have another question regarding images in Marks book...
How would the reinforcements on the north wall if built, as Mark shows them retain the earthen fill? It seems that the earthen fill between the remnants of the North wall and the timber reinforcements would have poured out between the sizable gaps beween the logs. Can anyone give me some sort of clarificaion regarding this?
In regards to my earlier post about where the earth came from to fill this space and to reinforce it after the space had been filled Mr. Ivey suggested(on the walking ourlast Friday) it came from the acequa digging outside he West wall. Thanks for the answer Mr. Ivey!
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 13, 2008 0:12:24 GMT -5
Mustanggray, I too have had this problem with this depiction of the wooden reinforcements at the north wall, and this *look* preceeds Mark's presentation. It is evident in Jack Jackson's The Alamo: An Epic Told From Both Sides. It was also built that way by Michael Corenblith for The Alamo (2004) -- the space between the horizontal logs is greater than they are thick.
I'm sure Jake Ivey has specific feelings about this and can enlighten us, but my previous understanding was that this was a cribbing made by sinking cedar posts vertically in the ground about three feet outside the partially ruined wall. The posts were placed in twos at intervals of say eight feet along the length of the wall. Each set of two posts would be in a line perpendicular to the wall with enough space between them to allow horizontal logs to be dropped in, thus forming a wall outside the wall between which dirt could be shoveled. Very little space would remain between the horizontal logs laying in this cribbing.
Gary Zaboly has drawn an excellent representation of a cedar cribbing on page 69 of Blood of Noble Men to show a fence in Plaza de Valero. A structure like this would hold the dirt.
So where did this other version come from? In fact, now I'm not even sure why I think it was the way I said. HELP!
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Post by marklemon on Mar 13, 2008 10:39:05 GMT -5
Rich and Mustanggray, I acknowledge your concern about the north wall reinforcement, but always remember that timber was at a premium. To fully line the north wall, some 240 feet long, with a revetted (horizontal) palisade of logs all sitting atop one another to a height of about 8 feet, would take 1,920 square feet of wood. Better to interlock them, as I have shown, and place stones in the spaces between to prevent spillage, than to scour the countryside for miles around for the timber necessary to do this. (I placed some stones in the gaps, but they are not really visible due to the shadows in the photos) After all, they had plenty of rubble and stones, but trees, not so much. And as it is, having to come up with planks and logs to do the work they did do, must have been a great challenge. The dirt supplied by excavating the western trace of the acequia, provided literally tons upon tons of earth, which was vital, and key, to providing enough earth to complete not only the north wall reinforcement, but other positions as well. Mark
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 14, 2008 2:40:50 GMT -5
I'll buy that. I never thought about that. My only additional question is, is there evidence at the Alamo or elsewhere for such a construction?
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 14, 2008 2:53:06 GMT -5
Mark, I just noticed another error -- for correction in your next 1500 books. In your cannon article, your notes for E-7 on page 142 say, "There was one 'conventional' 12-pounder at the Alamo, placed at eh rear battery in the church, called Fortin de Teran by the Mexicans...." This battery was called Fortin de Cos. What's most embarrassing is that I missed the same mistake in the Alamo Journal article, which might have been in time to save the blooper in the printing of the book. Sorry.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 14, 2008 3:06:36 GMT -5
By the way, I never thanked you for the grand set of print-outs you gave us for the walk-around Friday. The bad news is that now I have to take THAT everwhere I carry the book!
I particularly like the fact that the plat of the complete Alamo is without numbers in the circles. Was this intentional? This certainly would make it a useful tool for educators, if you actually sold it as a separate sheet. They could xerox it and put their own numbers in it -- just for the details they chose to study -- and write their own key. It would also be useful for tests. Hand out copies with certain items numbered that the instructor wanted the students to write about. Many cool ways to use this.
A good example is my friend who is a GT teacher in Del Rio. If she used it, she probably wouldn't need to test on every detail of fortification and the names of individual west wall houses, but she would on more general features, and thus would only number those items.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Mar 14, 2008 3:10:35 GMT -5
By the way, Mark, where can interested folks buy copies of the spectacular art prints you were selling in the Imax lobby Saturday? And that was a quite reasonable price, too.
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Post by marklemon on Mar 14, 2008 15:26:15 GMT -5
By the way, Mark, where can interested folks buy copies of the spectacular art prints you were selling in the Imax lobby Saturday? And that was a quite reasonable price, too. Rich, The posters are $10.00 each, or two for $15.00. (plus 5.00 s&h. Persons wishing these posters (size 13" x 22") can send check or money order (made out to Mark Lemon) to: Mark Lemon 4116 Summit Circle NW Acworth, GA 30101 The posters will be sent rolled in a mailing tube. Mark
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Post by marklemon on Mar 14, 2008 15:33:09 GMT -5
I'll buy that. I never thought about that. My only additional question is, is there evidence at the Alamo or elsewhere for such a construction? Rich, we have no evidence, one way or another, about the precise configuration of the revetted reinforcing on the north wall. While it may have been a solid wall of horizontally laid logs, I rather doubt that the Mexican engineers, who knew the quantity of timber available, would have been so lavish in its usage, but instead would have found a method which allowed them to obtain the same result, but also save on wood. And remember, the logs would all have been covered in a protective earthen enbankment, so a solid log reinforcing wall was not necessary. What I have done is to display a configuration which I feel accurately reflects a scarcity of timber. Mark
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