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Post by TRK on Aug 3, 2010 14:33:04 GMT -5
...which includes the information, "Upon the arrival of Colonel Sanchez and his men, all that remained of the old mission was the chapel. Resolute to carry out Santa Anna's demands, Colonel Sanchez instructed his troops to begin tearing down the church." Ahem.....
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 3, 2010 14:33:20 GMT -5
Good point, Gary. And that is why I am trying to track down the earliest version of it.
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 3, 2010 14:39:44 GMT -5
What is also interesting from the two 'accounts' is Adina is discussing the removal of the convento's second story as being worthy of damnation and the other seems to answer with a Driscoll defense of the church alone as being The Alamo. Reads like Second Battle of the Alamo propaganda. Curiouser and curiouser.
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 3, 2010 15:02:31 GMT -5
What is also interesting from the two 'accounts' is Adina is discussing the removal of the convento's second story as being worthy of damnation and the other seems to answer with a Driscoll defense of the church alone as being The Alamo. Reads like Second Battle of the Alamo propaganda. Curiouser and curiouser. God and Texas! COL (R) Alan C. Huffines Back in the 1980's, Dora Guerra did a translation for me of Andrade's memories (Alan-did I give you a copy?). Anyway, no mention of ghosts or flaming swords... You may be on to something about the second battle propaganda. It also reinforces that "Devine" intervention in 1836 was not to be messed with--perhaps a reminder to 1900 folks?
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 3, 2010 15:21:45 GMT -5
TL:
You probably did. I will say for the public record that you shared everything you ever had with me. I did see an original edition of it for sale some time back.
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Post by marklemon on Aug 3, 2010 17:08:16 GMT -5
Hypothetically speaking, if this were a police case, we'd start with the known and progress to the unknown. The first important thing to determine is, "who is Colonel Sanchez?" Did he exist? He appears in both accounts (which in itself proves nothing) but his name may be a starting point. If he can be identified with certainty, then the next step would be to find his papers, if they exist. Failing this, his descendants would be the next step. They should be interviewed in a most general manner, so as not to ask leading questions, (the desired answer to which may be crafted by the respondents to try to please the interrogators. No questions like: "Do you ever remember any family stories about demons with flaming swords chasing your ancestor away from the Alamo?") If vague questions are asked, without giving away the object of the question, and positive results are achieved, then we may be getting somewhere. This is a hell of a lot of work and trouble, I realize, but it may be the only way to do it, failing a strike on a heretofore unknown stash of documents.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 3, 2010 17:15:38 GMT -5
Yes, it does Rich. Here is another telling of the story. I found it on the internet so it must be true. Notice the amount of detail added in this one though. www.militaryghosts.com/alamo.htmlGod and Texas! COL (R) Alan C. Huffines OMG!!! Now I believe it for sure. At least Alamo Village got a good plug, if not by name. It's a good thing they didn't talk to one of our early employees, who used to visit with Duke nightly up at the Waynamo, where the employee's quarters were located -- of course, he also consumed quite a bit of Tequila in the evenings!
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 3, 2010 17:21:37 GMT -5
They should be interviewed in a most general manner, so as not to ask leading questions, (the desired answer to which may be crafted by the respondents to try to please the interrogators. No questions like: "Do you ever remember any family stories about demons with flaming swords chasing your ancestor away from the Alamo?") If vague questions are asked, without giving away the object of the question....... This methodology obviously didn't exist with interrogators (at least newspaper columnists) in the 19th. century!!! More like: "Mrs. Dickinson, please tell me about your reccollections of Travis drawing the line.... and.... and Davy's coonskin cap." lol. (Sorry, I digress.)
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 3, 2010 17:26:07 GMT -5
So I suppose that such unsubstantiated folklore can serve a useful purpose: to point serious research in a direction it would most likely never have gone.
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 3, 2010 19:09:42 GMT -5
Rich:
It nests well with the other Biblical themes we have force-fit into the Alamo. Like Gary I believe these things usually have a grain of truth to them. Besides, which of us doesn't like a good ghost story?
BTW, was the employee who palavered nightly with the Duke named Jerry?
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 3, 2010 22:06:25 GMT -5
Rich: It nests well with the other Biblical themes we have force-fit into the Alamo. Like Gary I believe these things usually have a grain of truth to them. Besides, which of us doesn't like a good ghost story? BTW, was the employee who palavered nightly with the Duke named Jerry? Nope. Jerry was his boss (and mine, unfortunately). His name was Mel Green and he lived in the Mo (as I did back in the sixties for five summers). He said John Wayne knocked on his door one night. I think they had a drink together. lol.
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Post by Herb on Aug 4, 2010 8:57:24 GMT -5
So I suppose that such unsubstantiated folklore can serve a useful purpose: to point serious research in a direction it would most likely never have gone. Rich, this is an interesting point something I'd like to discuss sometime with some serious historians. I was once involved in a military operation, where the major objective of the operation failed, however a secondary mission, that was primarily designed as a deception was wildly successful. Some disturbing things happened in the part that failed. There are no written records of what fully happened in the portion of the operation that failed, only the oral memories of those who were there (folklore/tradition ?). A couple of years ago, I picked up a book full of historical citations based on the documented history of the operation. It is of course an almost totally false story - though it will be regarded a century from now as the true story. The ex-soldiers' tall tales are much closer to the truth. It is one reason, I'm cautious about totally dismissing (well maybe not Andrade's Demons) folklore. While it may be exaggerated, problematic, and everything else negative. It also may very well be based on the truth.
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Post by Herb on Aug 4, 2010 9:02:38 GMT -5
And who is my old pard from Knox? I am sorry but I don't recognize 'wolfpack.' I just overnighted at Knox last weekend. What a change. "old" may be right! I once said, before i knew better, "you know you're old when the tanks you first served on are mounted as monuments at Fort Know. Guess what I saw mounted as monuments, the last time i visted Fort Knox? Check your PMs (look for the link at the top of the page).
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Post by stuart on Aug 4, 2010 11:54:54 GMT -5
So I suppose that such unsubstantiated folklore can serve a useful purpose: to point serious research in a direction it would most likely never have gone. Rich, this is an interesting point something I'd like to discuss sometime with some serious historians... It is one reason, I'm cautious about totally dismissing (well maybe not Andrade's Demons) folklore. While it may be exaggerated, problematic, and everything else negative. It also may very well be based on the truth. Too true, especially as the credit for success too often goes to individuals who didn't do anything to deserve it. I'll not go too far off thread by citing examples from my own experience other than to back up what Herb says. There were a lot of things we got up to back in the day that were never recorded at all and some things accepted as gospel that never happened. Then again there are also things I saw which I never talked about simply because nobody would ever believe it... Swinging back to history I once did an in-depth study of a 17th century battle near my hometown of Aberdeen. Some of the written material, including detailed evidence presented to a court of inquiry, was very good but in the way of things it also left a lot of questions unanswered simply because those involved all knew what they were talking about and didn't need to explain it. The big question was the orientation of the battlefield with two possible interpretations depending on which road one of the armies marched along (a bit like the Medina). None of the written sources was specific enough, but I eventually came across an old folk song recounting the battle which in passing contained a line mentioning the place where that army spent the night before and thus in turn identified the road.
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Post by garyzaboly on Aug 4, 2010 14:30:24 GMT -5
Going further back in history, we have the example of the Bible: while often dismissed by smug moderns as not really being "history," yet much of what it contains (beyond the spiritual edification) continues to be verified by archaeology.
Other examples, like that of Robin Hood, are perfect examples of oral and written folk or literary traditions---THE VISION OF PIERS PLOWMAN, the "Gestes," etc.---marking the earliest known sources for a possible historical antecedant.
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